nulibrary, nu?

[Chrysophylax Dives]

sorry if this is in the wrong place or i should have joined an existing thread - was not sure how to make this request/suggestion.

also, though i'm writing this now i don't wish to give the two Admins more work - so this is a sort of post-dated request for after the elections.

i had in mind writing a couple of short pieces, related to recent plaza discussions as they intersect with my own research. i don't want to post them as a new thread in lore because they are long monologues. this made me remember the old scholars forum. every now and again a suggestion is made to revive that - but this is not exactly what i am proposing. the old scholars forum contained some essays by members but was primarily a collection of invited outside contributions. while it would certainly be nice to host some good external contributions, i'm thinking of lore writings that are primarily by members.

another way of putting this is to step on a soap box and proclaim that us unimaginative lorists have as much right to express ourselves as creative role players and authors of the plaza. there are dozens of places where you creative people can express yourselves but only the lore forum for us unimaginative folk.

thanks for your consideration. i'm happy to engage here with any discussion as to possible problems and pitfalls.

Chrys Dives

[Fuin Elda]

Not necessarily the person you want an answer from but I like the idea!

As another idea what about the NuLibrary? Right now it's Quotes (and for some reason all the icons got stuffed in there by Moriel out of CoLP) but honestly I think it might be a good place for things like scolarly essays for the time being? (especially if we move all the icon bits back to CoLP or Media adaptions as they most certainly aren't lore based so not sur why they got moved there ever)

If we get rid of the icons and put them in a more appropriate location perhaps the NuLibrary can be adjusted from a subforum to a full forum which would make such contributions both to those doing the quote contributions and the more scholarly ones such as yourself in terms of keeping an area active and giving a bit more space and if we are using such essays as sources eventually it's an excellent place to have it in a 'library'

[Aikári Salmarinian]

It would be a nice idea. A place where we can read essays or other personal lore stuff. For myself aye it would be quite educative to read on other opinions and insights than my own, and broadening my views. I am no lorist or scholar, but after my recent review, yes, I can value in a place for these things. Or perhaps just post in the lore forum itself, as it has a clear connection to it. Just my two cents.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

As another idea what about the NuLibrary?

checking out NuLibrary (must confess, i've never looked inside it before)

Edit: took a quick look. it could certainly work. have to be honest and say i do not as yet understand what the NuLibrary is. Lots and lots of things here...

[Aikári Salmarinian]

As far I understand, all is related there to "Narv forum" (this place) to store ranks and icons of today and the past. You find that all there, also the winners of the Arpy's. And more things. I peek sometimes in it.

[Fuin Elda]

As another idea what about the NuLibrary?

checking out NuLibrary (must confess, i've never looked inside it before)

Edit: took a quick look. it could certainly work. have to be honest and say i do not as yet understand what the NuLibrary is. Lots and lots of things here...

Originally it was meant to be a bit of a quotebank database for the different books, films and other media adaptions for members to use.

I honestly can't tell you why the icons got sent in there those have sort of turned it into a jumble so honestly imagine it without those in there as really they don't belong but since I was mostly the only person in there it didn't really matter as I was in there like a lost librarian.. AKA IGNORE all the icon threads that are in there We'd relocate them (probably back to COLP) The only thing that will need to be put somehwere new is the ARPYS ARCHIVE

If the library gets a bit more use in terms of also having scholarly essays in it it would have more use and would make sense to get the icons to a more sensible location than a scholar/lore section. I am not sure we are at the point to start getting new essays from people yet but I feel like we might be able to get old ones and have permission to get them back up on this site.

[Winddancer]

Ok so basically 2 requests then? One for a seperate lore subforum for essays and one for the icons? (I just woke up, forgive me)

@Fuin Elda do not quote me on this (haha see what I did there :P ) but I am fairly, reasonably, maybe sure that the reason the icons got moved to the NuLibrary, was cause it was called NuLibrary and it was a place to store the history of the Plaza, which the icons are a part of as it tells who the admins were.

But to all feel free to voice your opinions on it, we will of course have to wait until the other admins are voted in, so we can blame them to get you an answer.

[Fuin Elda]

@Winddancer The original use of the NuLibrary was meant to be a replacement of the original Library which had originally been a wiki but due to the absolute saturation of Wikis on LOTR that are far more complete than anything Plaza originally had, it was decided to be a quote bank since we were not going to have a side page for it any time soon and it would keep it out of the Lore section itself as it's not so much discussion involved on it so it was nicer to keep them seperate so we didn't have to have them pinned at the top of lore itself as we'd already gotten to three and it's building (it would now be four with the new Silm Quotebank I started up a few days ago) as they are not as active as a true lore thread.

Honestly I have no idea where the 'it's a Plaza history receptacle' mentality came from originally that wasn't actually a part of where it came from when the userbase voted for it - I was not asked about putting the icons in there that was done well over a month after the fact not initially I just suddenly saw the threads in there. I do know the Arpy Archives were added simply because they were already there so might as well put them there... (viewtopic.php?f=3&t=645) You can check the actual discussion and voting at no point was it meant to be a library/archive for icons nor was that discussed in the public vote for it. I think a public vote for this as well would also absolutely work in terms of running a poll similar to the NuLibrary one.

I would dare say that we are possibly discussing making a new subforum in either COLP/Media Adaptions for the icons as they are NOT lore based and possibly switching NuLibrary to a full forum instead of just a subforum (similar to how we have a place for different RPing and Art, this would be a highly visible place for less discussion and more direct sharing of information that possibly could be shareable/referenceable?

Though I'm not sure on the referenceable portion that I mentioned that's something I will admit I inferred from Chrys' suggestion

I think as long as we don't do anything requiring a CSS formating and just make it look like Media Adaptions and Lore it shouldn't be TOO hard as a new forum but I don't know what the coding to make it have points takes that's the only thing where I'm not sure on in terms of how difficult it is to do. I know a in 2020 a new forum was not on the table but I think at this point Lore has been staying consistently active (more so even I'd dare say than the RPing section though it's starting to get more members again) And giving it a bit more room instead of shoving everything in subforums would likely help with organizing more essays and the visibility of them . As @Chrysophylax Dives has stated he never even looked in NuLibrary before now, but what he's suggesting certainly I feel falls more in line with the original scope of the NuLibrary idea and if the two are combined together would merit a full forum rather than a subforum.

[Aikári Salmarinian]

Winddancer: Goodmorning then! Hope you had a goodnight sleep?

I wonder really, as related to essays but not the forum subject, how does one write a scholarly essay? I never understood it really. I don't have the ambition to try myself, but some knowledge about it?

[Chrysophylax Dives]

I wonder really, as related to essays but not the forum subject, how does one write a scholarly essay? I never understood it really. I don't have the ambition to try myself, but some knowledge about it?

Aiks, you already know the substance of the answer, but maybe without knowing that you do. Beyond conversation, words are used by the free peoples of Middle-earth for songs and stories, on the one hand, and for giving and reading counsel on the other. When characters give counsel, as Gandalf does frequently (e.g. to Theoden) and he and others do at the Council of Elrond, they are doing with spoken words the same thing as an author of a scholarly essay does with the written word.

So, for example, it would be easy (if not very interesting) to turn Boromir's position at Rivendell into a scholarly essay. First the basic claim: The One Ring is a gift - it should be used against the Enemy! Then a series of arguments: the men of Gondor are valiant but cannot long withstand the might of Sauron without aid, and so on. Finally, a conclusion, reiterating the basic claim in light of the arguments: The Ring must go to Gondor so that the War will be won.

Different styles may be employed by different speakers/writers. At the Council of Elrond, for example, Elrond takes a rather old-fashioned approach, which provides the whole history of the problem. These days, scholars usually cut to the chase a bit quicker. I've no doubt that careful analysis would reveal interesting differences between the rhetorical styles of giving counsel between, say, elves and dwarves.

Observe that counsel appears only among the free peoples. Sauron only commands. Saruman, however, illustrates the confusion of counsel and art, and as such the corruption that 'scholarship' easily fall into. Saruman's voice is an enchantment, and when he pretends to give counsel he is in reality enchanting his audience - pulling on their deep desires, pretending that the easy path is the virtuous one, in short propaganda that merges the art of fantasy with the business of counsel to corrupt the heart.

And so we see from the story that courage, counsel, and art are all necessary to recover from the bewitchment of fake news and other propaganda. Caught by the word-nets of Wormtongue, the heart and mind of the King of Rohan is ensnared by false dreams of peace. Gandalf calls on Theoden to take courage, and then offers him counsel. Once the king has marched to war he sees creatures from the fairy stories of his people walking on the green grass - ents and hobbits - and his recovery is complete. Now Theoden can hear the voice of Saruman (a magical version of the snares of Wormtongue) and retain his own will.

First and foremost, each one of us must take courage. Then we must establish the right counsel (where scholarly essays may help). And finally the imagination is ready to be unleashed, the world of fairy stories realized, and we have embarked for Valinor!

[Aikári Salmarinian]

Chrys: Oh, it is just describing what happens in a situations and then from different angles? Than instead doing it from the character point of you, just only yourself as reader? A very good example you have used how to do it.

It is very well you are right that I am doing it without consciously knowing I do. The experience/reviewing angle I usually do from a character himself or herself. You used 8 March 1939 with Prof. Tolkien travelling to the north for a lecture (which took place at the St. Andrews University in the coastal town of St. Andrews in Scotland) as a brief mentioning. But I was more curious to the lecture itself and what kind of effect it might have on someone to actually hearing it from him, set against the world of 1939. That is IC travelling through time and using the situation/angle position of the character. Not myself in person.

I guess I could take a story passage from the story books and give an descriptive angle how each character views and experience it. Just as that council meeting you have given from Elrond about the One Ring.

[Winddancer]

@Fuin Elda as I said, that was the reason I THOUGHT it was, not necessarily that this was what it was. I did have a look in admins, but nothing there, though could have been discussed on discord as we asked Lirimaer if she was ok with them being moved. Will have a look later. Either way doesnt really matter one way or another as it doesnt prevent us from looking at it now.

I do know that creating forums are difficult and that the subforum was an easier compromise, so keep that in mind.

Also keep in mind that you dont necessarily want a ton of subforas either, so that should be limited to as few as possible imo.

Renaming subforas are easy and have no issue with doing that to Nulibrary if the consensus is to use it just for quotes. And I wouldnt be opposed to the icons going into a colp subforum. Though do think the list of who was admin should be made into a page. That would be a nice way to keep track. Wouldnt put it in media as our icons are based on RAs ATrs and not about the adaptations.

I am prolly a bit more hesitant about a subforum for JUST essays, as realistically how many of those would there be? And would they be open for discussion? Locked and seperate threads made?

Kinda like all the area rp threads atm, which could all go in one to be fair, but imagine if people started wanting subfora for each one?

Not saying yes/no as its not for me to solely decide, just my view on it.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

I am prolly a bit more hesitant about a subforum for JUST essays, as realistically how many of those would there be? And would they be open for discussion? Locked and seperate threads made?

All the nulibrary stuff is a bit beyond me, but in terms of my original request:

How many would there be? Not many, for sure. But then one could have said the same for posts in lore for most of the last two years. Basically, i stopped my Tolkien blog two years ago (after Wordpress locked me out and demanded money for me to get my blog back!) but every now and then have an urge to pen a blog post/short essay. So long as nobody objected, i would be happy to supply a new essay every now and again. But you never know and maybe others would also wish to contribute. If people wished, it would also be possible to reach out to some people and request contributions. Personally, I would not counsel bringing back the old scholars forum essays, except those penned by members of the plaza. This because i feel (quite strongly) that things have moved on and we need some fresh perspectives.

And would they be open for discussion? Absolutely! No point without discussion.

I'll be blunt and honest here. Part of what motivates my request is simply that i like to write such things because it helps me clarify my thinking about things i like to think about. But I was also disturbed quite deeply by the incident a week or so back concerning some deleted comments. This woke me up to the wider world out there and the need to defend Middle-earth when necessary. Please do not get me wrong - I'm not looking to write 'political' essays on Middle-earth. But I do have a strong feeling that it is important to spell out certain key elements of Tolkien's thought that might help in the current situation. As indicated in my reply to Aiks above, the whisperings of necromancy must be met not only with courage and imagination but also with reasoned mapping of reality. Put another way, I am convinced that it is from delving deep into Tolkien's own writings that what we value in Middle-earth is best defended. I hope this makes sense. I would not normally spell my motivations out quite so bluntly but the fact is that I have come to trust the judgment of you all (certainly the three people who have also contributed to this thread) and so I trust you not to leap to any wrong conclusions from this confession.

[Aikári Salmarinian]

Winddancer: I understand your hesitance. If you admins feel the lore forum is sufficient, that is acceptable too for me. But as you say, it is a decision for after the elections.

Dissection that Fairy-Tales essay of Tolkien this weekend was for me an intellectual applepie, as I often experienced at university. It was two days reading in a studying way, letting flow my thoughts over them and give an review (I got extra points for).

[Winddancer]

I think Andro posted an essay not long ago, right? Just think the essays would get far more viewings and responses in the main forum rather than tucked away in a subforum. But like I said, thats my opinion :) Hopefully some of the lore wanderers will pitch in @Androthelm @Boromir88 and @ whomever else cares, speak up!

@Aiks appreciated, but I dont solely decide, its up to all of us <3 and our lovable troll.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

I think Andro posted an essay not long ago, right? Just think the essays would get far more viewings and responses in the main forum rather than tucked away in a subforum.

yeah, but then they get lost over time in the mass of posts - as is already happening to the Tom Bombadil essay. @Fuin Elda is quite right to associate my suggestion with a library. @Androthelm's essay could be the first item in the library.

[Winddancer]

@Chrysophylax Dives So you think it will be more visable in a subforum? (Not having a dig, genuine question!)

[Aikári Salmarinian]

"Long awaited essay" thread I found and read fully through, and I have now a little understanding of the level Androthelm wrote this. Personally I find now quite astonishing, but true maybe I could add a humble comment to it.

Chrys: Thanks still for your explanation!

[Romeran]

Perhaps it's as simple as differentiating between Lore and Advanced Lore?

I think the Lore (basic) forum should encourage people to ask simple or even silly questions and allow for rather free form discussion.

Advanced Lore would by definition be a slow moving place where the initial post would likely be a more thorough or scholarly entry (I think there are already a few good examples in the current Lore forum which could be moved to an Advanced Lore (sub)-fora.

The main pros I see are:

• As a slower moving set of topics by nature these wouldn't risk falling down to the second page, thus encouraging new people to participate
• It can act as a "display" for particularly exemplary entries. Just like back in OP when some threads would get moved to Adv. Lore.
• It might more actively encourage in-depth discussion

And the cons:

• Lore forums are already fairly slow and splitting them up might discourage rather than encourage activity
• If the advanced lore (or whatever) is harder to find then it might not make topics easier to see
• If we put on some sort of requirements (be them length or something else) this requires some moderation, e.g. to stop people from posting "Why didn't the eagles fly them to Mordor?" as a topic. This means either mods choose to move threads (like on OP -- I think this is not a good option) or it's self-selected and mods need to oversee it.

I have half a mind to resurrect my old Faramir thread in advanced lore (maybe with an editorial pass 10+ years later) which I think could make for an interesting discussion. I also posted a paper (not by me) about Boromir which appeared in the Journal of Tolkien Research which got some small attention on Discord but perhaps would get greater attention in something like this.

Here are some example threads from NuP:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=884
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=867
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=737
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=388
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=391

[Winddancer]

@Romeran gawd the discussions on OP about Advanced Lore, sheesh.

Keep in mind that Narv has ALWAYS advocated a free for all in regards to opening threads. No one has to ask permission to open one (other than making sure not to make copies or take someone elses idea of course). That needs to be honoured if any other forum/subforum gets created. And that should go for any new forums introduced as well. I think the best way to get around people just opening a random thread, is have it called something specific, like Essays (or whatever) to denote that that is what that forum is for.

We are not big enough to have mods for specific areas, nor do we have enough to switch out at set terms. We will have to rely on the participants to report stuff admins might miss as opposed to someone modding that specific section. But no, there will likely not be another halfir type of admin. But that is not to say that someone appointed admin cant go in and be more active in there (though they will have to go everywhere as well).

My biggest concern is the thinning it out issue. What killed the Plaza (before the hack) was regions. WAY too many forums, things got spread out so much that everything just died out as a result. Keeping it all in one forum gives the illusion of it being busy, which does breed more activity. But saying that, if you go look at the Lore forum now, the first page is not even filled with last posts from this year. To me busy is when you "risk" your thread getting bumped to page 2. And as long as stuff is on page 1, it's easy to find imo.

[Aikári Salmarinian]

Yeah, I can say that except for Gondor, all other forums have either 2021 or even 2020 on the bottom of the first page. I just zipped through them in a quick mode.

[Romeran]

@Winddancer I guess I luckily avoided any Ad Lore drama on OP

Keep in mind that Narv has ALWAYS advocated a free for all in regards to opening threads. No one has to ask permission to open one (other than making sure not to make copies or take someone elses idea of course). That needs to be honoured if any other forum/subforum gets created. And that should go for any new forums introduced as well. I think the best way to get around people just opening a random thread, is have it called something specific, like Essays (or whatever) to denote that that is what that forum is for.

Yeah I'm a fan of this as well which is why I didn't like the idea necessarily of mods moving things like they did on OP and yeah I agree that the best way would to explain why this (sub)fora is different. This would be my preferred program if we did go the new (sub)fora route.

We are not big enough to have mods for specific areas, nor do we have enough to switch out at set terms. We will have to rely on the participants to report stuff admins might miss as opposed to someone modding that specific section. But no, there will likely not be another halfir type of admin. But that is not to say that someone appointed admin cant go in and be more active in there (though they will have to go everywhere as well).

My biggest concern is the thinning it out issue. What killed the Plaza (before the hack) was regions. WAY too many forums, things got spread out so much that everything just died out as a result. Keeping it all in one forum gives the illusion of it being busy, which does breed more activity. But saying that, if you go look at the Lore forum now, the first page is not even filled with last posts from this year. To me busy is when you "risk" your thread getting bumped to page 2. And as long as stuff is on page 1, it's easy to find imo.

Yep this is my feeling too. While I listed the pros and cons it is my feeling that Lore just isn't fast moving enough to warrant splitting it into another forum, but I'm sympathetic to the idea.

[Winddancer]

Yep this is my feeling too. While I listed the pros and cons it is my feeling that Lore just isn't fast moving enough to warrant splitting it into another forum, but I'm sympathetic to the idea.

That is pretty much my take on it too. And worried the "good" threads wont get seen by random traffic if it is stuffed into a sub forum.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

@Chrysophylax Dives So you think it will be more visable in a subforum? (Not having a dig, genuine question!)

yes. for the reason that contributions will be few and far between. i don't like 'advanced lore' as a title, but i could go for something like the 'don't be so hasty lore' as in, from the perspective of an ent the slowness of contributions in coming does not really matter, and has the virtue of not crowding out existing contributions.

distinction between the non-hasty lore sub-forum and the main lore forum might merely be word count: if you wish to begin a thread with a post over, say, 1000 words, then you can/should post it as an 'essay' in the non-hasty place. think of @Androthelm's recent essay. As a post on lore it was great! And it garnered praise and comments. Now it slips down out of sight, as is the way of all threads, and as it should be with any one thread in the main lore forum - but twere better not for Androthelm's essay, which is something of a different level of composition, merits occasional re-reading, and thereby sustained and continued - if slow and non-hasty - discussion.

though i say it as shouldn't, being (a timid) one myself, i'm not sure a dragon can appreciate slowness as can an ent.

[Moriel]

As an occasional contributor to and frequent reader of lore threads, here's my two pennies.

On the Old Plaza, lore was busy enough and there were enough newbies coming in with similar/often asked questions to somewhat justify the division between "basic" and "advanced" lore. Though, I've always taken issue with those names, as to me they imply that certain contributions are more valid or important than others, rather than acknowledging that everyone has something to contribute. Here on NuPlaza, I don't think there's enough activity or material to justify a second forum. And certainly not a whole admin or moderator dedicated to it. Additionally, the creation of any forum or subforum that's exclusive to "advanced" or "scholarly" topics, even if self-run, requires a set of rules/guidelines and to what can be posted or/and moved there. That is incredibly subjective, and is also a level of gatekeeping and elitism that I think goes against the spirit of NuPlaza. In my opinion, lore topics that want to be "scholastic" will probably be fairly self-sorting: if the OP starts with an essay, people who aren't interested in reading and responding to essays probably aren't going to do so. If the OP says "why didn't the eagles fly them to mordor" (or whatever), people who've engaged on the topic 25 times before are under no obligation to respond. If someone really wants to mark out their thread as being "scholarly," perhaps tagging the title with [Essay] or similar to flag it might be a solution?

And as an aside, nothing I've put in quotes here is meant to be a dig at serious discussion or scholarly aspiration- I am myself an academic writer and believe in scholarly discourse. However, I am heartily opposed to creating divisions between people who all enjoy and want to talk about the same thing, particularly when those divisions can have the side effect of making some feel inferior to others. Separating "basic" from "advanced" and gatekeeping who is allowed where has always contributed to such divisions.

If any new forum or subforum is to be made, my suggestion would be that it be a subforum called "Essays," or similar, with no indication as to what "level" one has to be at to post in it, with general guidelines as to what the subforum is for, but no moderation as to who can post what. One person's definition of an essay and what deserves to be posted in an essay forum may not be the same as another's- and telling someone that their scholarship isn't good enough to be shared with other scholars is no way to encourage further scholarship.

[Winddancer]

@Chrysophylax Dives I can appreciate slowness, which is why I made the point that it will be a while before it even drops off the first page. Things ARE slow here. Some fora barely get anything posted in it, like Fangorn f. ex. I just dont see you pov in regards to "things dropping out of sight", when they aren't even moved off of page 1 after 3 months ;P Every "important" thread still shines on page one, because there just isnt that many new threads.

I do like Moriel's idea of marking them with Essay in the title, that would make them more visable too. My fear will always be that people wont see the sub forums (like you hadnt even seen the NuLibrary! :P ) and that it will become somewhat of a clique place.. or just a storage space for a few threads *shrugs*

[Romeran]

@Moriel all around, I was mostly using Adv. Lore and Basic Lore as a strawman comparison to OP rather than actually proposing the names Advanced and Basic lore (for precisely the reasons you state).

I also thought about tagging with (Essay) or something of the like. I know at one point there was discussion on NuPlaza for using (S) for silly although I don't think it received any traction? Or maybe there just weren't any more silly threads after that discussion

Problem with the tags and self-enforcement of them is that it's not guaranteed to provide any form of consistency and isn't backwards "compatible" unless we go back and modify titles, thus if the idea is to use these to help distinguish between threads it's still more or less a toss up unless there's enforced consistency which to your point is difficult based on an individual's notion of what constitutes an essay.

I like the idea of being able to showcase more scholarly works, and I also like the idea of easily being able to determine "am I about to go read something which requires a lot of thought or are we having a silly conversation". I'd be concerned about the traffic level that a (sub)fora would get given that Lore (and truly most of the plaza currently) is fairly slow moving.

[Winddancer]

I also like the idea of easily being able to determine "am I about to go read something which requires a lot of thought or are we having a silly conversation".

I honestly do not get that when I go in there. Guess I always go in with the idea it will require a lot of thought no matter what. The silly ones are easy to pick out as they have a "silly" title. I mean take my sewer one, obviously you know from the getgo it wont go into extreme discussions like a Tom Bombadil thread would :P

[Fuin Elda]

I would be absolutely happy to have NuLIbrary renamed to something like say the Scholars Library perhaps? Honestly I can say I've not been in the Halfir subforum since a few days after my last post in there? It's not something I even really look at. Subforums often get that sort of treatment as they aren't at the forefront of ones mind... And I"ll admit I was even a bit slow to go into my NuLIbrary one that I have been puttering in for a year at times because it was out of sight out of mind because it's just tiny font unless I'm in Lore.


The new forum/renamed subforum could easily be a place where it's a bit more serious (AKA my lore based threads shall never make that leap because I don't feel like any topic I bring up lore wise would get to that point because I am not as well versed as many) where said essays can be posted with ease without getting lost (and more visible to all thus the thought of moving it from sub forum to full forum - this however is the part where the new admins are probably needed in terms of creating a new forum) It'd also be a useful thing for where members are asking for certain quotes for creating more scholarly essays or where the discussions start to take on highly scholarly tones...which I will admit I will read but I am afraid I have about as much to contribute to those threads as Florida does to the creation of snow tires. An example would be what Andro did in his "mastery" thread for that long awaited essay he's asking for quotes directly based on something for a more scholarly endeavor/formulating a complete idea before posting a thread... This would still allow free for all postings in terms of people wanting to open threads to find things out in terms of hey are there quotes to support this? While give it a specific track in terms of what its for? It could also possibly double as a good place to repost scholarly works from contributors should we get permissions to repost them eventually.

And if we have people looking for quotes I can happily trawl through threads and grab quotes from the books to be put in the quote bank with no issue.

For COLP if one wanted to do an archives subforum for closed threads (we have several of those from revamps etc) and icons that would be fine @Winddancer I'm not sure where the discussion was had, I remember seeing Moriel asking on plaza in one thread about moving all of the icon threads and LIri agreeing to it. Like I said it was fine and permissions were asked of the thread runner I just never understood why the icons were moved to a lore section - I think it was to clean them up from CoLP personally (as there were a lot of threads most of which would be on the second or third page now forgotten now)

[Romeran]

I honestly do not get that when I go in there. Guess I always go in with the idea it will require a lot of thought no matter what. The silly ones are easy to pick out as they have a "silly" title. I mean take my sewer one, obviously you know from the getgo it wont go into extreme discussions like a Tom Bombadil thread would :P

I mean I open every single thread but I don't think that they all require similar levels of investment to read and contribute.

[Elenhir]

Personally, I don't really see the benefit to the plaza as a whole. If we're talking about something akin to the old Scholars' Forum, it was my understanding, at least in the first few years of it, when it overlapped with my presence on the old Plaza, that it was a place for showcases from outside the Plaza, from people with ideas that were recognized as desirous to bring to the Plaza folk. I suppose the connection being made is that the proposed content now are also essays, but essays were always allowed, before and after the Scholars' forum, and were generally either moved to Ad Lore very quickly (if quality), or written while communication in the back-channels assured they would be moved to Ad Lore immediately.

Since this is a much smaller community without the long-established networking that allowed the Scholars' Forum to do what other fora didn't, whatever we call it, what we're talking about is a distillation of Ad Lore more than anything else. It's Ad Lore but without other threads that made their way there, the questions that generated great discussion naturally. The only real difference being intent. And as there were a grand total of six threads created in the main body of Lore during the entire span of the last month, I don't think intent matters that much. The separation made sense when there was the remote chance of being pushed off the front page of any given Lore forum (because, let us recall, there were many) before people could see it and appreciate it. The separation made sense when there was enough discussion that some people didn't want to sift through all of the questions with easy answers to find something that made the mind smile. Those were real benefits to the state of Lore on the Old Plaza. Wider and more pipes for a bigger town. It helped the flow. Here, it's more likely that segmenting off material will make people miss material. The whole shebang is counterproductive.

If something not having absolutely the most readily-accessible and in-your-face visibility after a few months is worrisome, put it somewhere else, too. I still, when googling quick support for (mostly Elven-related) responses to rare questions, find Tinw's essays there at the top of google results, ready to be seen and used and appreciated. I read a few of them in full, again, every few years just because they are there and they are good. A lot of the old loremasters had blogs and websites and sideprojects. Hell, all I did was host copies in google docs and with full visibility permissions and things got shared around. Hosting opportunities are plentiful. I don't think the Plaza should be used as a substitute for anyone's wordpress.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

I would be absolutely happy to have NuLIbrary renamed to something like say the Scholars Library perhaps? Honestly I can say I've not been in the Halfir subforum since a few days after my last post in there? It's not something I even really look at. Subforums often get that sort of treatment as they aren't at the forefront of ones mind... And I"ll admit I was even a bit slow to go into my NuLIbrary one that I have been puttering in for a year at times because it was out of sight out of mind because it's just tiny font unless I'm in Lore.

Thank you Fuin Elda! For myself, this would work perfectly. Names: lets avoid anything 'scholar', 'essay'' or 'advanced'. my suggestion is 'non-hasty library'.

Windy, what Fuin Edla says about sub-forums is quite right, and what I'm trying to say is that i not only don't mind, i welcome that quietness. being out of sight and out of mind is not the same as being private and exclusive; people can find if they wish.

It would be nice - i think - to ask @Androthelm if he would be prepared to offer his essay as a first contribution.

That is my two cents worth.

Just as a postscript. I see I tapped an Old Plaza nerve on this one, as well as a NP nerve too. I'll go happy with whatever people decide, as i said i trust you'all and i appreciate you have different perspectives. For myself, the solution is probably that i should sort my blog out!

But i want to say that, for myself, I don't give a fig for OP. I much prefer what i see on the new plaza. (I was never as committed as you guys - the place was already dead when i found it, and my own lost home is a G+ community vanished into the void by Google.) I think you are falling into the past a bit in your discussions above. Whatever was wrong with the OP advanced lore - you are quite right, let's not replicate it!

[Winddancer]

But arent you contradicting yourself then? You dont mind if it is out of sight and out of mind in a subforum, but you fear it dropping off the first page? How is it being on the second page any different than being in a sub forum? Surely the same goes with finding it if they wish there as well?

If activity is not the goal (increased or decreased) then what is? Is it just to have a seperate forum for a specific type of threads?

My worries will always be rooted in OP, though I do get people are sick of hearing about that. I just dont want us to end up the same way and to learn from the past mistakes. Making too many forums DID end badly, too many forums spreads the activity too thin. Keeping it in one keeps it active. And claim the same for any Kingdom as well, I would caution making too many threads/fora there too.

But as said before, this is MY opinion and it is not worth more than anyone elses. So I do hope that everyone that wanders around Lore would pop in and speak up :)

[Chrysophylax Dives]

But arent you contradicting yourself then? You dont mind if it is out of sight and out of mind in a subforum, but you fear it dropping off the first page? How is it being on the second page any different than being in a sub forum? Surely the same goes with finding it if they wish there as well?

If activity is not the goal (increased or decreased) then what is? Is it just to have a seperate forum for a specific type of threads?

On the first, the halfir archive offers a first comparison. having spent many hours preparing 'peeling the onion' as a pdf i almost never go there. but the other day i wanted to check something that halfir wrote, so i did (which is how i found that the pdf was down). within the halfir archive it is easy to find 'peeling the onion' because there are only a few items. the archive functions here like a library.

I would hope that people would check out the subforum a bit more often than the halfir archive, and this because it is active and growing (if slowly) while the threads in the halfir archive are locked (we decided back then that any discussion could take place in the main lore forum).

On the second, my personal goal is to initiate and engage in some slow but sustained discussions of what i consider the roots of things.

This is just my personal take on things, but there are a few factors at play (beyond my simple desire to read and write more about Middle-earth). Once, long ago, i was a little punk. In the early 1980s in the UK there were different sorts of punks. More common at my school were the 'just for a laugh punks', like 'Peter and the Test Tube Babies' (with their immortal 'Never made it to the bog in time') but i was a very serious anarchist punk who believed that the music had to be political. Looking back i see what an annoying, spotty, clueless teenager i was and i concede in my heart that the 'just for a laugh' punks probably had the right of it. Still, i find myself thinking about those days when i consider the situation of lore in the plaza. I accept that many posters in lore regard all lore as (to quote a signature) "useless knowledge" and believe that lore discussions should be trivial and fun (please don't nuke me @Romeran). Now i am older than i was, i see the wisdom in such a hobbit approach to lore. But i still remain at heart the boy i was at 14 and desire a little corner for serious, earnest and sustained investigation of the roots of Middle-earth.

On my original post I pointed to a soap box. Getting on it again, I say to you (all): the plaza as it stands serves the imaginative storytellers and RPs but does not well serve us unimaginative lorists. To you it is obvious that a RP post and a short story are utterly different, yet I find myself having to explain and justify that a thread on the main lore forum is like a newspaper article but it is good sometimes to also open a book. The situation is compounded by the fact that lore is the first forum on the list, in some sense it is the front of the plaza, and as such is highly visible, open to everyone, and - rightly - a home to trivia quizzes and discussions of Numenorean sewage. With this i have no problem; there is room on the main lore forum for both serious and just for a laugh threads. But as such the main lore forum is not conducive to certain kinds of lore discussion, and i request a place for them.

But all that is just preamble. Here is the wider situation as i see it. Lore has been doing better of late, primarily thanks to the contributions of a few individuals (credit again: Romeran), but also because of a ripple of wider interest caused by the Amazon series. @Boromir88 said recently that plaza numbers will pick up when the series comes out, and he is surely right. When that happens your current concerns - lack of activity, struggling just to maintain the illusion of a working plaza - will vanish, to be replaced by more of the same kind of garbage as that movie-thread incident with the deleted comments. At this point we will all have to wake up to the fact that the context of the new plaza has radically changed from that of the old - the wider world out there is today in a very different place, and we are going to have deal with more sewage leaks. Obviously, the first line of defense = the Admins, and you did good. But the incident disturbed me, and i found myself reflecting on the need to express the values that i find on the new plaza in terms of Middle-earth. What I want is that when someone posts some obnoxious hate, we understand not only that they have stepped over the 'woke' laws of the new plaza, but that these laws reflect not only our values but the values that we find and learn from the stories and writings of J.R.R. Tolkien. I want to be able to articulate, simply and clearly, that posts that embody hatred are whispers of necromancy, and that as Tolkien fanatics we know (better than most) why they are evil and how to deal with them.

I say this to you all: you know in your hearts that I am right when I say that the values you espouse on the plaza are values that you have found in Tolkien – how else could you have become Tolkien fanatics? So why should we not articulate those values in Middle-earth terms? To work out such ideas requires a few people, working slowly but surely. My aim is not visible activity but arriving at the roots of lore.

Edit: Windy, I'm not going to rewrite (too lazy, no time) but i should not have branded Gondor's sewage system as a just for a laugh post. It is a good question! Sorry.

[Winddancer]

My concerns remain the same, that we would be spreading lore too thin, that the new forum could become a place people might not feel welcome to post in, that it becomes too elitist and that it will not get seen by anyone other than those in the know. But also, will that be the end of the requests? If we have one specifically just for essays, do we then want one for languages, for flora, for fauna, for races and so on? Other than that I have no issues with adding one lol

You say people have to trawl through tons of threads to get to the good stuff, dont see it as any different as having to go search for the sub forum. And I liken it to the RPG forums as we have to trawl through tons of games and silly threads to get to the serious rp threads there too, but that is all part of what makes Plaza the Plaza, that it is so diverse and so open to all different kinds of RP as one is not more "correct" than the other. We all value different things. And dont forget, the "silly" threads often spark great discussions (not claiming mine did!)

I have to say I dont think we will have a huge influx of new members, not unless we do some advertising, which is something to discuss in a different thread.

I have directed Narv towards this discussion, he will give his feedback as soon as he has time. But would be nice if a few more Lorists pitch in, that way we can ensure we do it the democratic way :D

And thanks for the edit! While I know Gondors sewer system isnt important lore wise, it is still fascnating given that the city was built into a mountain and anything related to any kind of pipe system or tunnels would have been an immense feat of its own. Especially as no dwarves were helping!

[Aikári Salmarinian]

Winddancer: "My concerns remain the same, that we would be spreading lore too thin, that the new forum could become a place people might not feel welcome to post in, that it becomes too elitist and that it will not get seen by anyone other than those in the know." You are voicing this beautifully, at joining about 20 years ago this community, that is what I exactly felt at the two lore forums back then. Such high level discussions were held, they were not accessible to me. I didn't feel welcome there. So I concentrated on the RPG's only. Now at 47 years old I am ways more life experienced than at 28 years. And understanding lore is not that dificult as I once thought. Then in this place there is room for a voice that has no scholarly past, in a matter of speaking. I am just a lover of the tales. I think in the current situation best is concentrate the lore threads in a single place, and as proposed above give the thread a clear title, so it is recognisable.

I am also hesitant to say - based on experience - the Hobbit didn't generate an influx while I was adament that would happen, it didn't. So I feel it will be more of the same, and we have to face a simple fact, the way we got to know roleplay has moved on. In 2000 this was a kind of unique feat, as there were no online worlds, where you could visually play with other people in story lines. Sort of online live action roleplay gaming. War of Warcraft was about one of the first of these platforms in the latter years of the first decade of 21st century. We should not give hope up that people might be interested in writing RPG as we know it here.

Chrys: You're voicing that much I am still processing it. Punk? Aye that I know for sure lol. If I got nostalgic feelings to my highschool years (1987 - 1992), I put up the movie of the Breakfast Club.

[Romeran]

I accept that many posters in lore regard all lore as (to quote a signature) "useless knowledge" and believe that lore discussions should be trivial and fun (please don't nuke me @Romeran). Now i am older than i was, i see the wisdom in such a hobbit approach to lore. But i still remain at heart the boy i was at 14 and desire a little corner for serious, earnest and sustained investigation of the roots of Middle-earth.

Quick clarification on the intent/meaning behind the Bertrand Russell quotation ("there is much pleasure to be gained from useless knowledge"), it comes from one of his books "In Praise of Idleness and Other Essays" you can find something similar (but does not contain this quotation) here in any case the word 'useless' here is actually Russell is actually rather derailing against, asking what do we really mean by 'useful knowledge' and is all the knowledge that we once considered useful really 'useful' as much of it (like teaching people Latin and ancient Greek) is now considered rather 'useless'. Bertrand actually put quotation marks around 'useful' and 'useless' throughout. What he's saying is that, in addition to many other reasons he gives in the text (such as mental stimulation) for having such perceived 'useless' knowledge, that simply there is great pleasure to be derived from it and that is nothing to sniff at. Note that great pleasure doesn't mean that it need be 'trivial', for one thing I derive a great deal of pleasure from reading (and contributing in the unusual situation where have something insightful to say) some of yours and other people's in-depth contributions

On my original post I pointed to a soap box. Getting on it again, I say to you (all): the plaza as it stands serves the imaginative storytellers and RPs but does not well serve us unimaginative lorists.

I don't think it's fair to say that lorists are unimaginative, it's just imagination of a different sort.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Quick clarification on the intent/meaning behind the Bertrand Russell quotation ("there is much pleasure to be gained from useless knowledge"), it comes from one of his books "In Praise of Idleness and Other Essays" you can find something similar (but does not contain this quotation) here in any case the word 'useless' here is actually Russell is actually rather derailing against, asking what do we really mean by 'useful knowledge' and is all the knowledge that we once considered useful really 'useful' as much of it (like teaching people Latin and ancient Greek) is now considered rather 'useless'. Bertrand actually put quotation marks around 'useful' and 'useless' throughout. What he's saying is that, in addition to many other reasons he gives in the text (such as mental stimulation) for having such perceived 'useless' knowledge, that simply there is great pleasure to be derived from it and that is nothing to sniff at.

Exegesis much appreciated. To be honest, I rather like the quotation (but found it rhetorically useful in trying to make a point). What rubs me up the wrong way in your signature (and it is of course purely my problem) is not the quotation but the proper name Bertrand Russell. I blame Russell more than anyone for the world's failure to appreciate The Hobbit.

[Romeran]

I blame Russell more than anyone for the world's failure to appreciate The Hobbit.

I know we're getting massively off topic here but I'm super curious about this. Academically I come from a background in mathematics and statistics so my encounters with Russell's come largely from his work around Principia Mathematica (which ended up being all-for-nothing when Gödel came along with those damn incompleteness theorems!). I'm curious how he relates to The Hobbit.

[Aikári Salmarinian]

Romeran: Thanks for sharing that link of this philosophist Berthrand Russel, I had never heard of him.

[Elenhir]

I say this to you all: you know in your hearts that I am right when I say that the values you espouse on the plaza are values that you have found in Tolkien – how else could you have become Tolkien fanatics? So why should we not articulate those values in Middle-earth terms? To work out such ideas requires a few people, working slowly but surely. My aim is not visible activity but arriving at the roots of lore.

No. I do not know that you are right. In fact, in my heart, and in my head, I know that you are wrong. Tolkien appeals to an incredibly broad variety of people. You can find Tolkien fanatics in both the most peaceable, isolating, live-and-let-live hippie types, and you can find them in the most murderous, depraved neo-Nazis. Every couple years, on one Tolkien site or the other, I find myself beating back the rolling creep of adherents of a deranged deceased lunatic, who wrote a thousand page scrawl of despair and hatred masking itself as intellectualism, and included a hundred or so pages about how Tolkien's story was meant to show us the wonder that would have been had the Battle of Hastings only gone the other way. These people are far more fanatical than you or I. Fanaticism is not about faithfulness to values. It about zeal in values.

How else could you have become Tolkien fanatics, you ask? Because people are more likely to mold their perceptions of a work and the work's authors to their own than anything else. I have seen the same single quote used by people to express that Tolkien was a complete anarchist ("just like me," they cry) and a strict monarchist ("just like me," echo the others), and I imagine several people here know exactly which quote I refer to. The truth of the unclear is malleable, even moreso when it is the truth of the dead. I have met every manner of disreputable lout who professes to be (and sincerely is) a fan of Tolkien, and professes (and sincerely believes) that he shared their views. This is a very dangerous perspective, so easily turned towards self-validation. And that you can speak it in the same breath as your rehash of the recent racist troll incident, as a response to that, only serves to make it all the more clear that validation is the objective.

Validation through Tolkien is irrelevant. Tolkien is not the source of morality. Tolkien is not the fount from which we, simple and complex and ajumble as we are, derive our selves. The pursuit of what you're speaking of is inherently unwise. Baking it in to the framework of the Plaza is downright madness. I wholly oppose this sort of pseudo-intellectual preening.

[Aikári Salmarinian]

Elenhir: What you say I am come in with, throughout my life I had to deal with people who you almost accuse of ultra-right sympathies and it's nasty stuff. In a sense I am myself more of pacifist, just against war and all that goes lost, lives and infrastructure alike. But what Chrys said and you just quoted I am just riddling out for myself. As I have these last days discovered about myself, that lays more complex than just a simple headnod. The Plaza, despite the loss of the old site, was always a place I felt welcome, and I still do.

[Narv]

I've only skimmed everything here enough to confidently award it the Most Highbrow Admin Messages Thread Ever award -- I'll have to go through again and read everything more carefully before forming any actual opinion on the contents/proposals :) But agreed in general that this will all likely be stuff for the new full admin team to decide on once that's all sorted, and I'm pretty open to going with what you all / they decide.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

I blame Russell more than anyone for the world's failure to appreciate The Hobbit.

I know we're getting massively off topic here , but I'm super curious about this. Academically I come from a background in mathematics and statistics so my encounters with Russell's come largely from his work around Principia Mathematica (which ended up being all-for-nothing when Gödel came along with those damn incompleteness theorems!). I'm curious how he relates to The Hobbit.

To the one who solved the dread riddle of @Drifa, I can deny nothing. Look for a thread on the main lore forum next week. However, I ask one condition: if I convince you (no certainty), you change your signature. Deal?

To everyone: I know this discussion is largely spent, but i do feel that i made part of my case very badly. It boils down to this: there are many ways with words by which people can engage with Middle-earth, some but not all are catered for here. RP and short stories and general lore discussion do well. I like to do what some people call 'Tolkien scholarship'. I feel there should be a place for my words too. But I feel that the very idea is met with a charge of elitism. While I acknowledge the dangers, I feel that this is a way of closing down and shutting out the voices of marginal members and is incompatible with what the new plaza is supposed to be about.

@Fuin Elda, do you mind if i contact you on the email on your contact page? i wanted to talk with you about an idea that flows out of all this.

[Aikári Salmarinian]

Chrys: I am not good in discussing matters like this. But based on new academic insights I gained this last week from analysing Fairy-tales, this tastes for a little more in that spectrum. I am not against 'Tolkien scholarship' at all, though I have understanding too for the fears pointed out. But as they were voiced, I will not say more about it. You didn't make your case badly. If you had, I would never bothered to reply. You motivated me to come out of my comfort zone and out of the box too! There is a middle road to this, I know it. One way or the other. Let's wait for after the elections, and what the new admin team will say. And off course, Narv's promised reaction too.

And these were my last two cents.

[Winddancer]

I dont think there was confusion about your request ;) More that what you seek can be done in the forum we have already. Posts do not get buried or drop out of sight of the first page. Right now there is 1 essay. 2 if you write one up soon. Just doesnt seem like it is necessary and I do worry it will become a place people wont feel welcome to post in unless it meets certain requirements. I do not want to see the elitism happening here like it did in AdLore, what happened there still makes me edgy.

As far as splitting icons from the quotes, I dont really feel it is necessary either. They have been fine together for 2 years. My misgivings are more towards adding more forums. I know that is something Narv isnt keen on and neither am I, again the spreading it thin and just adding for adding's sake.

But those are my opinions and when the new admins come in we will have a chat about how to proceed :)

[Romeran]

To the one who solved the dread riddle of @Drifa, I can deny nothing. Look for a thread on the main lore forum next week. However, I ask one condition: if I convince you (no certainty), you change your signature. Deal?

Deal (I wont point out that I already decided to clear my signature )

[Fuin Elda]

@Chrysophylax Dives you absolutely are welcome to email me at that account in terms of further idea discussion I'll have to actively check it it's not my primary anymore but it does filter into my primary email account

[Boromir88]

And here I am late to the party again. Well, I think everything's been said that needs to be, so I won't rehash any of the arguments. I'll try to briefly give my opinions.

I understand the basic point that there are several areas on the plaza for writers, and creative writing that's often inspired by Tolkien, but lore's not the primary focus. So, I like the idea of having an area for lore essays, but my question is then can't we just do that in the lore forum? My understanding is the admins want most ideas/activity to be member-driven so I don't think you'd get anyone deleting lore essays/telling you you can't post those here, unless it violates plaza's rules/diversity statement. As it is currently, I don't think there's enough activity to warrant a separate lore forum/sub-forums. That's not to say I'd be against separate forums/sub-forums if the need arises, but currently I just don't see the need being there. At some point I wouldn't mind contributing (and going to encourage @Romeran to post an Faramir essay update ), but I have such a back log of stuff I'm still intending to do here. ...including but not limited to: 3 links for the halfir archive, eventually getting back to the Library quote bank and seeing what's needed there, more HoK quizzes, and so on.

Perhaps one thing that can be done is in the blurb below the lore forum, it says: Discussions in Middle-earth lore, languages, and books.

Maybe you can add like "member lore essays" (or something like that in the blurb) so that way people know those would be encouraged in the lore forum as well?

[Chrysophylax Dives]

To the one who solved the dread riddle of @Drifa, I can deny nothing. Look for a thread on the main lore forum next week. However, I ask one condition: if I convince you (no certainty), you change your signature. Deal?

Deal (I wont point out that I already decided to clear my signature )

OK! The last few days I came to terms with the fact that this is going to be quite a challenge. I will start a thread with a post, but it will take three posts! I will label the posts TLDR1, TLDR2, TLDR3 so that people can reply before all three are up (it might take another week or two to write the second two posts - i have most of the first done and will try to put it up later today. (Everything is a bit slow here because of an electricity problem at home - rats ate a water pipe, caused a flood and shorted the electricity; only just putting things back together.)