Discussion: Plaza-wide RP Rules/Code of Conduct

[Moriel]

This thread is to facilitate the discussion of potential plaza-wide rules or/and a code of conduct for roleplaying, as begun in the TR Helpdesk. The Helpdesk was created as a resource only, not a mandate, but as the discussion of site-wide RP rules has begun, we would like to hear your thoughts. Please see the post below this for discussion from the other thread.

[Moriel]

Relevant discussion from the Helpdesk thread on plaza-wide RP rules is below. Not every post from the thread has been included in the interest of keeping the discussion focused on the issue of plaza-wide RP rules.

Thanks for making this and working on it past, present, and future.

Not all of these things seem to me to be on the same level. Some seem thread-specific the way you have delegated to threadrunners, and some seem like they should be plaza wide. F.E.:

1) - Don’t post in (specified font colour or type) unless you are (XYZ)

seems to be very thread-specific, but

2) - No godmoding except by (xyz)

seems like something that should go for the whole plaza.
The reason I think the distinction is important can be illustrated by the following question: Should we assume that any rule not specifically stated in the OP of a thread is not a rule we have to follow? If there are any rules on that list (and I see several) that seem like they shouldn't have to be stated by a threadrunner in order to be followed, it seems to me they should be plaza rules.

As a baby threadrunner I think this template is extremely useful (especially the bright colors rule).

I might venture to say that the godmoding rule shouldn't be a plaza wide rule because it's very specific as to who and why someone might be godmoded for the sake of the game/thread while in general godmoding is a big no no unless you have prior permission.

None of these are plaza wide rules and we dont intended for them to be <3

Edit: Missed Ducky. Not all want to bog down a thread with a thousand rules as it will deter people from posting. We do expect people to apply common sense. No one is going to be in trouble for their posts, whether they break rules or not. The thread runner will let people know if they need a person to change it and it is then up to you if you want to do so or not, though if not it is probably best to discuss why or leave the thread.

We prefer not to have plaza wide rules for RP as there are SO many different takes on what is acceptable RP and what is not. If you worry about Triggers, then create safe threads with those rules in it and so on. That way there is room for all.

it's very specific as to who and why someone might be godmoded for the sake of the game/thread while in general godmoding is a big no no unless you have prior permission.

This statement is exactly why it should be a plaza-wide rule that the TR (or participants) can choose to give permission to ignore.

Why make it a plazawide rule and then have the TR ignore it? Why not just have the TR add not to do it when it is not allowed?

What if we called what the TR/GM does something other than godmoding? I think the terminology is tripping a lot of people up. Call it GM discretion or something like that?

To be fair, the TR can call it whatever they want :P

Why make it a plazawide rule and then have the TR ignore it? Why not just have the TR add not to do it when it is not allowed?

Basically I'm asking for something that's very common in board-game or card game rulesets: specific over-rules general. This is a great way of doing things for multiple reasons:

1) It allows the general rulelist to be short, sweet, and easily intelligible.

2) It gives exceptions to the rulelist priority and the spotlight, which allows for clarity on WHY they are an exception.

3) It gives freedom to the game designer to create with fewer restrictions.

Similarly, games like Dungeons and Dragons have general rulesets, and then make sure to specify that when there are questions of any sort, or interpretations of the rules to be made OR IGNORED, the GM is the final arbiter.

Let the individual threads and their threadrunners have the chance to be an exception by having some basic rules stated that they don't have to repeat. Let the individual threadrunners be GMs rather than having to write the rulebook every thread. Doing it this way will actually empower the TR rather than putting a burden on them, and it will allow you as admins to put minimal effort into writing a general set of rules that don't need to be very explicit and careful because you can leave the interpretation and exceptions to the threadrunners.

Let's get some more specifics on this proposal maybe: other than No Godmoding, which rules would you put on an overarching opt-out-only type rule list?

We do expect people to apply common sense.

In the very short term, I would recommend the admin team hash out whatever they think "common sense" is, and codify it. I don't consider myself qualified to say what is or is not common sense, nor am I an admin, but I would humbly suggest:
- Playing as (xyz character/type) not allowed/reserved (e.g. as a Nazgûl, Balrog, Maia, named Tolkien character)
- No playing a character someone has already claimed
- No godmoding except by (xyz)
- Do not assume someone else’s backstory
and MAYBE the last two posting rules listed above would all be at LEAST consideration worthy for a list. Why a TR should have to say those is hard for me to imagine. There may be others not on the above list at all yet, I don't know. Other people probably have different opinions on what is common sense too.

In the medium term, I would go back and look at this page:
https://web.archive.org/web/20060604054 ... licies.asp

And then, again as an admin team, write up your own statement of mission and vision. I imagine it would look pretty different from the old plaza's. Whatever other rules you might need (or any rewrites of your short term rules) ought to flow, in the long term, from that mission and vision statement. I am VERY unqualified to offer any particular suggestions as to this website's mission and vision, which is why I did not even nominate myself for admin, but trying to run a community without one seems like a bad idea to me.

I should add as an afterthought that I don't think I know best about everything, and I strongly feel like I give off that vibe sometimes, and I'm not trying to tell the admin team their business, it's just that you asked (and it affects me as a participant, so I feel obligated to say something)

Thanks for the details Ducky and no worries - we admins don't know best either, but due to the dynamic of these things we tend to get the benefit of the doubt when really we probably shouldn't always. Claiming to be 'member-driven' only works if we admins are open to people disagreeing with stuff we decide - so basically you're setting a good example, so continue And that goes for anyone else who has thought/ideas on these things too!

So anyways, I don't have much for specifics for you yet.. I don't want to speak for the whole team at this point as I too feel rather unqualified to decide such things (probably bad for me to say that, but I don't think it's a huge secret that really my initial Mission for making the site was to see if I could do it, so I'm not exactly a font of wisdom on this). But rest assured the suggestions/feedback is appreciated as we all try to figure out together what it means to be a re-created, super-old, super-new lord of the rings fan forum in 2020 A.D.

I agree with Ducky. Common sense rules should probably be codified/hashed out so we have them in place should we ever need to remind someone what common sense is. The handful of rules Ducky pulled out are what I would consider to be common sense, so it would make sense for them to be generic RP rules. And yes, I think it would make sense to do the colours and alt text options whenever possible just to be considerate of others.

When it comes to particular Tolkien characters, it would make sense for people to choose/elect someone to RP as a Tolkien character in a certain thread should the situation call for it. That way no one completely usurps a Tolkien character, but we still have the option to pull them out when they are needed. Sometimes a thread might need Aragorn, Samwise, Elrond, etc.

My point is more, why codify rules that you can then choose to ignore if the RP calls for it? I get that it is all on the TR to then figure out what they want added, but everyone has an edit button and things can be edited in if anything is forgotten.

Like take godmodding. People are generally in agreement that this shouldn't happen. However it does happen to some extent, the GM might need to do something to move things along, people might have a story in mind that requires it and so on. So if we then have a rule saying you aren't allowed to, people could report it. Then you would have to have the TR tell us who can do it and who can't, which also might change during the rpg. I mean I pretty much godmode in every rp I have been in, you can't torture someone without doing it :P

Basically right now we have no newbies and I get wanting to set it up for this massive influx of new members. But how about we wait to make it coded until then? If it even happens?

Also with the rules being specifc for each thread, you can chose which thread you do not want to post in based on the set rules. We wouldn't want people leaving because they find the plaza wide rules too restrictive.

Honestly, what I think we need a bit more than a threadrunner's helpdesk (although this will be helpful if/when we start getting more newbies) is a code of conduct. Some of us, even if we have RPG experience, have not done it for a while, or perhaps not done it in as large of a communal setting as the Plaza in a while, and it's easy to forget or overlook things.

For me, this means a few things like:

1. Respect the person behind the screen. Not everyone is capable of fully disassociating from their characters. No matter how little you personally relate to a character you've created, you still control that character's actions.

2. Respect the characters others have crafted. A lot of time and effort goes into crafting the personas we play on the Plaza, especially with our primary character, and/or with personas which are involved in a long-playing storyline. If you wish to roleplay a certain scene or idea with another character, other than general interaction, it is always better to ask first rather than make assumptions.

3. Respect threadrunners. They are, in many ways, the life-blood of the Plaza. Without these wonderful volunteers, there wouldn't be an opportunity to RP in these settings, or to experience some of the wonderfully hilarious RP, games, and competitions that we have so far. If, when you read through already existing posts, there seems to be a story playing out, always check with the threadrunner before interjecting yourself in it, especially if your character is going to try and exercise some form of 'authority.'

However, if there's not going to be a solid set of Plaza-wide RP rules declaring "these things are a no-go" then there needs to be firm definitions. Especially for something like godmodding. Because otherwise, every threadrunner is always going to have to thoroughly define anything and everything. And that will quickly become burdensome both to write and to read.

The things that a game/dungeon master/thread runner does in a thread to move a game or a story along are not usually considered 'godmodding' in my experience. When a player joins a thread (whether new or ongoing) there is (or should be) some complicit consent that it is a cooperative effort, and that the thread runner will need to make certain decisions, at times on behalf of characters. The exception to this is, of course, threads labeled as "Free RP" where they are open to any/all to roleplay either privately (with another character or even by themselves) OR in a group setting, but without the stringent control of a specific storyline or game.

Godmodding, as I've always understood it, is when a separate character inserts themselves into an established storyline or backstory and attempts to wrest control of it away from a threadrunner/gamemaster or to overrun another player's backstory. In some of the worst cases, it can even be roleplaying another character's actions without their consent to do so*. As I stated above, when participating in a communal storyline/game, some of that consent is implicitly granted and that should be understood by all roleplayers.

I have more thoughts that I'm still parsing out, but don't want to completely takeover or overwhelm this thread myself, so I'll stop here for now.

*And as I began crafting this post, I talked about this point with @Frostbite, as our main player characters have gotten themselves involved in a bit of a tumultuous romance. What's impossible to know from looking at our posts is that we discuss pretty much everything behind the scenes, and we have given each other essentially blanket permissions for some minor godmodding just so we're not waiting on posts from each other all the time. But we always check with each other. And we've decided, at least in group RP settings, to start making a note at the bottom of our posts when we take actions with each other's characters that would appear as godmodding normally, so that everyone else knows there was consent given.

What Taeth said. Exactly that.

I have gained a lot of roleplay experience in my time off-plaza as a Dungeon Master for D&D, as well taking up LARP, and you often encounter similar issues to these.

However plaza people are the only people I know in the roleplay community who continue to confuse Game-Masters (co-ordinators and facilitators of games, to be respected and listened to) with godmodders (essentially, role-play cheaters or in rare situations such as Taeth described, consensually taking control of another’s PC to move the story along).

That said, I don’t know if we need to have a written formal guideline on roleplaying, given I suspect the people who need to read it would probably never bother to do so and long blocks of text can be uninteresting and intimidating to some people.

My question is; how can plaza people better teach and encourage good roleplay through everyday interactions.

In my experience, I used being a Marshal in the cavalry in Rohan, as well as Campwisa in Campian, to offer both positive and constructive criticism of people’s roleplay when I interacted with them.

[Moriel]

My personal opinions:

Rules

If the plaza is going to have any site-wide RP rules, there should simply be, in terminology I have lovingly ripped off from one of my unions,

Global Rule One: No godmoding without permission. A brief explanation of what godmoding is, why it’s bad without consent, and how it can be useful or/and necessary if used with the other player or players’ permission.

I frequently make use of (generally) minor godmoding, as there are situations that are easier or only really possible with it. And as most of us would probably agree is common sense, I just ask the other person beforehand if it’s ok. When I see such interactions between others (like Taeth and Frost’s situation), I assume that such a discussion has been had. If it hasn’t, and one poster has a problem with what another poster has done, the first action should be to talk to that person. I’ve had to do so myself in the past and never had a situation be unresolvable by saying ‘hey, you did x with my character and I’m not ok with that, can you please change it?’

In my opinion, every other rule listed in the Helpdesk rule bank is sufficiently subjective that it should be left up to the TR’s discretion as to whether it should be included. Again, imo, things such as ‘don’t assume someone else’s backstory’ really fall under the potential GRO, and if we address that in the explanation of what godmoding is, it can be deleted from the Helpdesk.


Code of Conduct

The three points @Taethowen lists are good. And in my mind, implicit- it seems extraneous to me to have a separate code of conduct in addition to our general rules, DEI statement, TR rules/discretion, and the above potential GRO. That said, I do recognize the value of making the implicit explicit. What need to be clear, however, is what is actionable. The general rules, DEI statement, and Resolution for Rulebreaking in the Helpdesk make it very clear what is actionable as far as involvement by the admin team, and what is not. It seems to me the code of conduct would sit outside actionable territory. And if that’s the case, is it more complicated than it’s worth to codify?

[Lirimaer]

'Be excellent to one another' should be in there.

Not sure about 'Keep the dream alive'.

[Ercassie]

If I may, @Winddancer mentioned in the Threadrunners discussion thread, that the Admins (I’m assuming, she was referring to) had been ‘contacted by several members who were concerned about some posts’. Without wishing to identify which actual posts were involved, to spare embarrassment, may I simply ask whether the posts in question did not ‘fit’ somehow in the particular thread where they were posted, or was it a case of the theme/contents of these posts being unsuitable for the Nu Plaza in general ?

Because if it is the latter, surely that would imply that there is in fact a need for some general guideline, at least to safeguard against the issues that have inadvertently caused concern, in order to avoid people having to cause/face similar concerns in the future.

If the issue was a possibility of god-modding examples, then I apologise, for certainly the need to clarify that specific matter has been covered already.

[Moriel]

@Ercassie of course you may! The issues that were specifically brought to us were due to confusion on the rules of specific threads, and were resolved through conversation with the people involved. Some concerns have also been addressed by guidance that now exists in the TR Helpdesk regarding the use of content/trigger warnings. Hope that helps- if they were issues that the team thought required global rules, we would absolutely have addressed them as such.

[Arnyn]

Ehhhhh... Going against the idea many might have about serious RP Gondorians now:

In my humble opinion: the less rules, the better.

At least until such a time where we notice there is a real need for these RP rules, meaning admins and TR's would be spending way too much time explaining to people what is and isn't acceptable etc.

If people really want some RP rules, though, give the people what they want... But I really like how there are only five general rules right now and how they are only five lines! If we go for RP Rules, I strongly advocate keeping them few, short, and sweet.

[Elvheimdros]

On the whole I like Taethowen's three principles. However the difficulty - as she notes - is that they're not very well defined.

Which I think is actually fine, if we're able to maintain ways to discuss problems appropriately when they do arise. At the moment we have some group resources (OOC threads, Discord), but I don't see that we have a PM function set up (I may have missed it), not everybody's on Discord, and how much do we want admins to be involved? At current membership levels - and current RP experience - it can probably be handled between people, but theoretically there could be a point we want a "RP mod" or even a team.

One of my favorite forum guidelines are Team Liquid's "Ten Commandments", which keep things general and fairly short - but TL has a super-active and commited mod team that makes that work, as well as a system of being able to warn people as well as issue bans of varying length and (at times) for specific forums or threads, which I'd guess is hard on this forum interface. And I don't think we want to ban people from threads anyway as much as improve them.

[Winddancer]

Those 10 rules are nice, but they are not role play specific, which is what this discussion is about :P

You are right when you say we do not want to ban, we want to educate. We do want to have the resources for you to report something you feel needs reporting, but that report does not automatically lead to a ban. We look at the report and as a team we decide whether it needs us as admins to deal with or not. When it comes to RP, this becomes extremely difficult, because it is written in IC. Unless the post blurs that line between ooc and ic, well then pretty much anything goes as long as it is sorta PG 13. I say sorta PG 13 as we do have situations where this is pushed a bit, like with torture and some of the grim stuff minions get into. Keep in mind, Tolkien wrote some quite hideous things that we wouldn't even have here and he had no warnings.

I would love it if we could all just play nice and respect each other, but do understand that sometimes this is not always the case. So hence this thread. What Plaza wide rules about rp, would you like to see? Keep in mind, there has to be room for all. And that we do not want to stifle the creativity of this forum.

Also bear in mind we are only 210 members and fewer active. There is no need for dedicated mod teams atm. Should we grow to thousands, then we will of course be reviewing that as we grow. So for now, think of what rules you want FOR NOW, with just the 210 we are now. Don't think about all the what if's as we will deal with that when and if the time comes. These rules are fluid and can and will grow with the site.

[KingODuckingham]

Don't think about all the what if's as we will deal with that when and if the time comes. These rules are fluid and can and will grow with the site.

*quietly deletes long list of what-if's he had been preparing to post in this thread*

Personally I like everything else about your approach as admins (very few general rules, forgiving, open, TR-focused), but not this. I think it's better to be proactive and prepared than always reactive, making solutions when you need them. Doing that tends to create worse solutions because you need the solution right that moment, and can't afford the time to give it proper thought. But if that's how you guys are going to roll as a team then I ain't objecting. Like I said earlier, I'm not trying to tell anyone how to run things.

[Winddancer]

I get what you are saying Ducky. I do. And while I would looooove a huuuge influx of people that would make this place awesome, I think I am a bit more realistic. (I wanted to say pessimistic, but I am not, I do still have hope it can happen). We get trickles. One here, one there and days and days inbetween. And so far still all old members who know rp etiquette. Given that each TR is in charge of what rules they want for their threads, it is not like this huge influx of people can come in and "ruin" everything. They would be reading those rules and would have to abide by them just like everyone else.

I am all for laying out an etiquette type of guideline, where things like godmoding and proper rp behaviour (like consent and not throwing the rp off track for you own amusement, etc.) I just do not see the need for it to be a RULE. I just find it so silly that we spend time working out this rule, yet there will be a stipulation that this rule can be broken if xyz. Which is why I think it should just be in the hands of the TR as then they can add this RULE if they want or not.

Also we are talking about this now, so that does not mean we will ever be caught offguard in having to think something up and we are giving it plenty of time and thought :)

And just to make things 1000% clear. I speak for myself and how I feel the plaza should be, not for the "team". They all have their own opinions and I am sure they will be voicing them too <3

[Ercassie]

Thankyou to @Moriel for your explanation and also for your help (offscreen) in when content/trigger warnings are actually called for. I do heartily admit the use of such is a very new thing for some of us, well me, obviously, to consider and particularly in regard to what themes/content are advisable within the Nu Plaza’s rules.

I do like the current five general Nu Plaza rules. They make sense, are globally relevant to basically every kind of thread and are easy to remember. I would however support the move to add a clear definition of Godmoding, so that everyone can understand quite how far it can extend, and be aware of the consequences inflicted on other writers, as well of aware of when it may be necessary. Consider it less of a rule and more of another statement if you like, but for purposes of IC more so than for OOC conduct.

My reasoning for such an inclusion is as follows:
When a thread is made for a particular RPG or a particular theme/activity, such as an army adventure, then yes it almost goes without saying that there is likely to be threat/combat/death content in the posts there. That there are officers and GM’s who are keeping things in order, etc. And similarly, in a thread such as the Pits in Mordor, there is going to be a basic acceptance going in, that torture and cruelty is a given to expect in the content of posts there. (or pretty much anywhere in Mordor, to be fair). You know what to expect. If you enter as a non-minion especially, you can pretty much assume nasty things will occur to your IC. You knew what you were getting into. If you enter a dice-controlled game thread anywhere on Plaza as a participant, you are automatically giving the GM the right to determine your IC progress/failure by a power beyond your own control.

But where it comes to Free RP threads, posts can alter hugely in style/theme/content/etc with every single post made there. There is no way to 'warn' or to accurately predict what might be posted there.


In such cases, and as, myself, a person who (maybe now I'm thinking about it, 'foolishly') opened a Free RP thread in Gondor, we are now apparently being asked to take on the responsibility of policing and or dictating what occurs in threads we open. The very last thing that I want to do is make a huge long list or very detailed contract in my OP that anyone posting is effectively agreeing to post only either as type a, or type b, or type c stories there; because that goes against exactly what the point of a Free-RP thread is actually for. But at the same time, a sudden level of responsibility has apparently been thrust upon every thread runner, who may have recklessly opened Free -RP activities with little regard for such matters, under the initial "no rules/lets have fun/throw caution to the wind/this site may be gone in a week' sort of mentality that Nu Plaza began under.

So, in the interests of making/retaining very approachable opening posts, particularly for these type of threads, it would be nice if there were more generally accepted plaza-wide standards such as the godmoding, to simply/easily link/direct people's attention to. Outside of the thread itself. Just this one additional rule or rather, RP focused understanding, for the site as a whole, that we would be familiar with beforehand, and would call for less clarification required in every opening post otherwise. Opening posts of certain threads can after all, often be excruciatingly long, even before the consideration of thread rules, due to the detail of information about the particulars etc of the background, of likely inhabitants, or the geographical location it is set in that is often included. Several shorter opening posts already state to simply “adhere to plaza rules”, which is so delightfully simple.

A godmoding breakdown/understanding would basically,
1) give the admin a clear code which they can refer to if required to point out/justify response to an indiscretion,
2) give the thread runners the choice to still individually set their mood for their thread, and
3) give the members a clear understanding of what's expected, wheresoever they are.

This very (long, sorry) opinion may denounce me as one of those 'boring, responsible Gondorians' who wants to spoil the fun with unnecessary rules, but the entire idea behind the suggestion is to make ALL threads less confusing and less intimidating, yet still protected, for people who then won't hopefully be too afraid to post there because of too many rules in the OP.

EDIT: My definition example of godmoding removed as, turns out, irrelevant.

[Winddancer]

Thanks for your input @Ercassie! <3

I would just like to say that when it comes to threads that are labelled FREE RP, I do not see the TR as having to run that thread. It's a free RP, anything goes. And those that are concerned about coming across violent posts, will know that anything goes in a free rp thread. Where I see the need to "police" your own thread, would be for example Rangers (RPG) Chapter 1: A Growing Threat thread. There is an actual TR that is running things in there. In FREE RP threads, there is no actual TR making events and moving things forwards as it is a free for all and people have several different rpgs in there. Also when it is a free rp, you usually have people who already know what they will be rping about and given each other consent and the only real rule for that thread would be to not barge in on anyones rpg without permission.

Hope this explains it a bit in concerns of when should a TR be making rules?

[Ercassie]

That clarification is very reassuring @Winddancer, thankyou.

[Winddancer]

Good to hear! <3

[Silky Gooseness]

Don't think about all the what if's as we will deal with that when and if the time comes. These rules are fluid and can and will grow with the site.

*quietly deletes long list of what-if's he had been preparing to post in this thread*

Go ahead and post your What Ifs, Ducky, we can’t promise Action Now but it’s worth thinking about

[Tari]

For what it's worth... I'm down with a bare bones code of conduct for RP that we can build upon as a community when or if new things come up. Honestly I'm struggling with RP right now because I just cannot remember how to do it or what the heck I'm doing. It's been 12 years so even if these things seem like something existing members are likely to know, I definitely do not. Plus rules changed while I was gone so RP is really different too.

Mentioned having something on Discord in the diversity/inclusion/equity area about ablism and access and I think something like that would apply here as well. I definitely don't want to be RPing with folks who think its cool to have a neurodiverse character or one that's physically disabled because it's fun and entertaining to them - when these are real things people experience every day and we don't find it fun or entertaining. If that makes any sense. But something like that can also just go in the diversity/inclusion/equity thing and be repeated here on a smaller scale or something. I don't know. Basically, I'm good with whatever people are good with. It's nu plaza. It will grow and change as we grow and change and I think as long as we are always open-minded with that approach instead of sticklers like we sometimes could be on old plaza...well, basically good things will come from that.

[KingODuckingham]

Go ahead and post your What Ifs, Ducky, we can’t promise Action Now but it’s worth thinking about

Tbh I don't really want to anymore, I know it's terrible after starting the questions to back out now but I'm just not invested enough, it's too much like the meetings I have for my actual job. Too much misunderstanding, presumption, and too little progress, even amongst people who are good friends and have the best intentions.

FWIW, they weren't really what-if's anyway, more of general population directed "Are you okay with" questions. @Elenhir pointed out in Discord that there aren't no rules, just unspoken rules, and I would rather they be spoken than unspoken, so I thought asking a bunch of "are you okay with" questions to everyone would help clarify the unspoken rules. But now I feel like either I was wrong and everybody understands the unspoken rules but me, or that I was making a mountain out of a molehill, or that I was right but the arguments aren't worth having. Either of the three ways, I think I'm done, I don't have all the free time in the world and I'd rather spend it on archive digging or thief hunt posting than talking more about this. Maybe someone else can come up with better questions than I could anyway. Cheers

[Zôrzimril]

@KingODuckingham, for what it's worth I totally recognize and relate to the desire to be proactive and clear with setting expectations. My hunch is that it's the educator in both of us. <3 If you ever do feel you'd like to chat about this in future, we're all ears.

That said, I've avoided wading too far into this discussion so far because I am honestly kind of of two minds here - I do generally prefer setting clear expectations up front (again, hard teacher habit to unlearn), but I hesitate to Do Too Much when it comes to baseline rules for Plaza RP given the way NuPlaza started and the spirit of trust we're trying to promote. I know, though, that things can't always be sunshine and daisies, so I suppose my instinct is to find somewhat of a middle ground, with a "Global Rule One" about godmodding as Moriel mentioned alongside a Code of Conduct (similar to @Taethowen's suggestion) in place to guide people's interactions. This would be in addition to whatever rules threadrunners decide to implement in their specific threads.

This is where I personally am at, and of course I'd love to listen to input here.

[Narv]

I've also been lurking the last few days, in my case mainly because I don't really RP so honestly this is all a bit tricky for me to reason about very well. I take the point re: proactive vs reactive, and would be the first to admit I usually fall too far on the latter side. Beyond the Plaza Rules, Terms of Service and DEI, I don't personally really have any unspoken expectations for how this place should work (other than very fluffy and unenforceable sentiments like 'keep it fun' and 'give the benefit of the doubt' and so forth) - but that doesn't mean that those unspoken rules aren't a thing, just that I'm probably just as unsure of them as Ducky is.

All of which is to say I think I agree with Tarawen's take on this, re having one 'no godmoding' rule (since that does seem like a fairly ubiquitous requirement), along with some guidelines / code of conduct for the rest (the contents of which I would honestly have to leave to brighter RP minds than mine - it looks like even godmoding is a concept with many subtleties so I don't think I'm the one you want drafting this thing).

I'll try to articulate my personal reasons for not wanting global RP rules beyond that. In 2 months of adminship I have yet to delete a post, or tell someone to edit theirs. I am a fundamentally permissive kind of person, with all the ensuing pros and cons of that attitude. With the 5 general rules, I can look at them and say 'yeah, I could see myself enforcing that'. "Stick to the parameters the threadrunner puts in place" is likewise a simple directive I feel ok enforcing, potentially without a ton of context. "Don't assume backstory" is a trickier judgment call though, while something like "no Tolkien characters" is simple but honestly not something I personally would feel good about enforcing unless the threadrunner asked me to - because on a deep spiritual level I honestly couldn't give 2 poops if someone decides to be Aragorn in a thief hunt.

That's why I think making the implicit explicit via something like a general code of conduct (or guidelines?) appeals to me more, without implications of general enforcement that I personally can't easily commit to.

Again, all the idiosyncratic opinions of a man who's made all of 2 (maybe it was 3?) RP posts on this site.

[Aodh Hammerhelm]

Very interesting points raised in this discussion.

The more rules there are, the more enforcers will be needed.

I think paramount is one that makes sure we're meeting the safeguarding of young members (13 and under?) and making sure the Plaza is something everyone can enjoy with ridicule, insult etc.

RP Threads are, so far, opened and run by peeps who know what's what, so they can advise any newbies during course of thread.

Thread rules should be simple and concise, to make sure folk read them.

I prefer the term Threadiquette to Thread Rules...

How many active RP folk do we have? I'd guess a hundred or so? How many are inexperienced?

[Winddancer]

How many active RP folk do we have? I'd guess a hundred or so? How many are inexperienced?

I would say about a 100-150 active, yeah. Maybe less. None are inexperienced at the moment as all are old plaza people, though 90% were rusty to begin with and would think that would be the case for any other returning members.

Right now all but 2 are old members I think.

[Taethowen]

(I just want to chime in real quick and say I am not ignoring this convo, there's just been a lot go on with the Cavalry stuff and then some RL stuff has whacked me upside the head as well. I do have some thoughts to add to the discussion, it will probably just have to wait until later this week.)

[Winddancer]

No hurry Taeth, there is no deadline <3

[Lail]

This thread has been floating around in the back of my mind for a while and I've been trying to construct some thoughts without being too long-winded. So here are my concise opinions.

For me, I am a less is more type of person when it comes to rules and I don't want myself or others to feel stifled by them. I also believe that when you trust and respect members with freedom, you will receive their trust and respect in return. And this, I believe, will lead to happy members having fun which is the whole point, right?

Having read everyone else's thoughts on this, I am not sure we will ever come a full consensus and that's just the way life is. Some people want more rules and some want fewer (or none). I recognise and respect those of you with a more pro-active approach because you are offering a viewpoint that I don't have. I think that is really valuable and you raise excellent points I just hadn't thought of. All of this has steered me toward considering a compromise. Since we can't please everyone, can we find some middle-ground?

In the interest of being pro-active and in compromising between those who want rules and those hoping for a freer forum, maybe we can agree on some very general but widely applicable Threadiquette (thank you Aodh for the term) for RP. It does seem as Elenhir wisely pointed out that we are operating on some unstated but understood rules (or guidelines) already. Can we articulate what those loose guidelines we are following already are and use those to formulate RP Threadiquette?

Something of an aside:
The reason I say very general is because with some of the more specific rules already suggested, I can already see exceptions or grey areas to them. Such as, "don't play a canon character". I understand that to mean don't go run around RPing Aragorn or Gandalf. However, if that were a Plaza-wide rule, how could AoA RPG even take place? Now you are going to have to create exceptions to rules.

The other being "don't make assumptions about someone's character." Ok. But if I meet a hobbit IC, then I am (or my character is) inherently going to make some assumptions about them based on what they know about hobbits. One would tend to presume a hobbit is from the Shire, knows what Hobbiton and pipeweed are, etc. (Unless of course you're Jorgy Underash (@Frostbite's delightful lava snake-turned-hobbit ).) Maybe I'm over-interpreting this but my point is, where do you draw the line on some of these rules?

[Winddancer]

I dont see why people can't rp canon characters, think it adds a bit of spice to it, as long as people keep as close to how they were and not multiple in the same thread I think its great.

[Dimcairien Luiniel]

"Avoid RPing canon characters" is not a hard and fast rule, but is more of a guideline. But like Windy says, if you are RPing one of them, you should keep in character, avoid three Aragorns in one thread, and be prepared to take on a lot of interaction with others who may wish to interact with said character. I know Shiva and Thali are currently in RPing as Éomer and Éowyn in the Throne Room thread and Aig is going to show up as Elrond in the culinary contest.

I'd say, to RP a canon character, you need to be respectful of the character and the thread where you are planning to play them. When in doubt, check with the others already involved in the thread (or those you are planning to do a story with) to make certain everyone is okay with the canon character coming into the story.

[KingODuckingham]

"Avoid RPing canon characters" is not a hard and fast rule, but is more of a guideline.

It's not even a guideline, we don't have any right now, we're relying on everyone to behave. I think it SHOULD be a guideline (because I've got my undies in a permanent twist), but it isn't.

[Dimcairien Luiniel]

"Avoid RPing canon characters" is not a hard and fast rule, but is more of a guideline.

It's not even a guideline, we don't have any right now, we're relying on everyone to behave. I think it SHOULD be a guideline (because I've got my undies in a permanent twist), but it isn't.

I'm with you there. Hit me up on discord if you want to try and bounce ideas off each other to form a cohesive statement as to why some general RP guidelines (and what they could be) might be handy to have.

[KingODuckingham]

I present for the consideration of all the most recent threads I could find discussing all aspects of the Imladris Convention. The threads tackled godmoding, running RPGs, and many other topics, and were considered the closest thing to plaza-wide rules for RP. Maybe we don't reinvent the wheel insofar as there is an existing wheel, while recognizing the vast differences between now and 2010?

The Imladris Convention {All}
https://web.archive.org/web/20150402225 ... TID=236874


Running RPGs <Imladris Convention>
https://web.archive.org/web/20150518083 ... TID=236901


Godmoding <Imladris Convention>
https://web.archive.org/web/20150410205 ... TID=236900


Magic Abilities <Imladris Convention>
https://web.archive.org/web/20150518084 ... TID=236922


Character Posessions & Animals <Imladris Conv>
https://web.archive.org/web/20150404014 ... TID=236912


Non-related Additions <Imladris Convention>
https://web.archive.org/web/20150410144 ... TID=236899

[Elenhir]

Having skimmed a number of those threads just now, I stand by at least one thing I said back then: ban mithril*.

But that also seems significantly more robust than I think we need, and probably might ever need. Getting people to agree exactly on how to trim it down to something suitable to NewPlaza might be more work than starting near on from scratch, especially since most of the disagreement here seems to be how much needs to be said, or if at all.


*Gondor's few helmets aside

[Lail]

I don't have to time to delve into specifics, but I wanted to say I almost wrote in my post above that I'd personally rather not see another Imladris Convention. I think maybe it was needed at the time (and appreciate the effort that was put into it), but I'd rather not see anything to that level again. I do think referring back to our history can be useful to this discussion so thank you, Ducky, for taking the time to provide those links. Reading them, though, my initial reaction is that they are too much.

I quite like the guidelines in this post written by Aduchil which Dim pulled from the archives. For me, I'd prefer looser guidelines like that rather than a list of very specific rules about what you can and cannot do because I think it will vary a lot between threads. And I am enjoying the freer feeling of RP on this NuPlaza and don't want to get bogged down with a slew of rules.