Feedback & Feature Requests

[Burnt Toast]

(Not volunteering to do this but)...

If someone started a thread in the Cottage for people to share Etsy/Amazon/other links for their stuff, whoever started the thread could edit new links into the first post as sort of a "directory" as a quick reference

I've been eyeing this-- and I've got a post made up. Please let me know if it doesn't fill the need / you have any alterations you'd like made to it; happy to do so.

@Sil- Can this be pinned?

Also-- Is there a way to link to specific posts in this incarnation of the Plaza?

[Narv]

@Mor Toast Looks good, I've pinned your thread - it doesn't look like it because the pinned-thread icon didn't survive the torturous CSS hacks that make this site look like the plaza... but it will stay at the top of the forum anyway.

[Burnt Toast]

Thanks, @Narv!

[Narv]

Oh and to your second question: the short answer is no, though Ears found a way to link to your own posts here: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=141

Other people's posts are pretty much impossible right now without manually getting the post ID (say, by hovering over the Quote button) and appending it to the thread URL, which is way too much nuisance to be an actual solution. It might be possible to add a post-link button to each post one day though.

[Narv]

@Mor Toast ok I don't know if this was a good idea, but I just made everyone's rank icons a link to their post. You can get a direct link to that post either by clicking their icon and copying your current URL once it loads, or by right clicking the icon (or whatever the phone equivalent of that is) and copying the link location.

Not super intuitive, but I also don't really want to clutter up the post rows with yet another button, especially for mobile peeps. Let me know if you like this strategy or can think of a nicer way to do it!

[Burnt Toast]

Thanks, Narv! I don't currently have any brilliant (or otherwise) ideas, and what you've set up looks like a useful function and works for me! I'm slowly poking my very beginner face into the coding world, but I really am an absolute beginner and essentially know nothing. If that ever changes, I'll let you know! XD. Thank you.

[The Good Hunter]

I'm not sure if this has been proposed at any given point in the, if it's even plausible, or for that matter possible, but I was reading through the thread about length of RP posts and whatnot and I had an idea, possibly a bad one, that we find a way to scale the points?
All forums (outside OoME) gets 1 point for posts of 50 characters or more, 2 points for posts between 50 characters and 300 words, 3 points for 300-1000, and 4 for 1000+
I don't know if that's possible or worth it though. I thought maybe given greater incentive for medium length posts could induce people to post more in Pubs/Games/Lore threads etc, but wouldn't take away from those that wanted to crazy and do those infamous 3000 word posts.
Like I said, it may have been brought up before and rejected on the basis that's it can't be calculated or it's just a stupid idea but I thought it was worth offering.

[Aerlinn]

Thanks for making that CoLP thread, @Mor Toast!

[Burnt Toast]

NP, @Aerlinn !

Hey, @Narv - I was wondering if it would make sense to have some sort of general member use thread in the announcements section? I don't know if that starts to get too cluttery, but here's the need we are looking to fill:

A place for members across kingdoms to post asks for artist, writers, etc. from anywhere-- whether for interkingdom newspapers, or for games, or planning. A one stop spot for members to place RP/Lore/Game related asks to each other.

This came up as @Thorin Firehelm was looking for places to post about Khazad-dum's Nespaper The Mirrormere, asking for other writers, etc.

Maybe I'm missing a different obvious idea/solution, but thought I'd put it here for people to consider.

[Narv]

@Mor Toast Something like that definitely makes sense to have - us temp admin people had a little talk about it but weren't sure what is the best way to do it. Seems like the options for interkingdom planning / announcements are:

- A 'global announcement' thread like I've been making now and then, except for member announcements & IK planning. Pros: high visibility, reduces forum bloat. Cons: if there are a lot of announcements or things being discussed, could get confusing or info could get lost in the mix.

- An Inter-Kingdom forum like we had back in the day, with an 'announcements' thread plus planning threads for various things (which could include 'which Kingdom should have which thread type' kind of discussions, which was a good idea previously brought up). Pros: allows for better organization and planning type stuff, if that's needed. Cons: Adds another forum to the main page which may or may not see much activity in the long term.

- The above, but as a subforum in OOME. Pros: multiple threads without bloating the main forum index. Cons: does anyone really look at subforums?

It would be nice to get input on this from the people who will be using this thread/forum/thing the most - so, people who have been doing lots of kingdom planning and making threads and stuff. Which option makes the most sense for you?

@Frost as I think Sil mentioned, that idea has merit but we can't really do it technically.. so for now, our epic posters will have to stick to being rewarded primarily via the awe they inspire in their fellow plazarians.

[The Good Hunter]

figured as much, guess I'll just have to have shock and terrify you all.

[Burnt Toast]

Hm--

It feels like there are two different needs being addressed, potentially.

1. Announcements-- I think the "global announcement" thread would work best-- and then the con can be addressed by attaching a simple limit; each activity can simply be announced once. Frankly, it could run similarly to the Cottage Member directory; and the OP could be edited to update activities that are currently active. I'd be fine volunteering to do that, if we go that route. Then, the OP could have an ongoing list that stays short and simple based on current activities, delete old ones from the OP as they end, and there's really no need for the thread to get overstuffed, if it's just limited to a single announcement of each new activity that can then be updated in the OP.

Which brings us to the second need--

2. Inter-kingdom discussion/planning. I think this is a great idea and important to do, especially as we take off, and look at longevity. I loved the suggestion of talking across kingdoms, looking at what activities are where, and maybe trading off hosting, or, at the very least, checking in to see if a certain type of activity is already currently up in another kingdom-- instead of posting a new one in another kingdom, visiting that place. Since that would clutter an announcement thread, I think it would make most sense to have that planning thread be somewhere else. As to where... I think Inter-kingdom makes the most sense. You may be right, it might be just another thread on the main page that doesn't see much activity; but even if that's the case-- it seems like it might be important for us to hash out some of these activity trade-offs/communications now. Maybe that means later, that thread will fall out of use? I don't know. It'd probably be helpful to link that thread to the announcement OP, for reference.
And it could be a sub-forum, but it does seem useful to have it be right on the main page for people of all kingdoms to check into when they're considering building a new thread.


TL;DR -- Toasty got carried away and thinks we should have not one, but *two* additional threads. *self eye-roll*

Ok... what other thoughts do people have?

[Winddancer]

I kinda prefer the idea of a global announcement thread. I dont think it will be too flooded tbh and people looking for something to do will know to go there and look. Perhaps limit it to 1 post per activity, so that you dont get one from each kingdom, e.g looking for people for the Drill team or word sleuth, but say something generic, like head to the kingdom of your choice to join as I am sure all kingdoms will have a team.

[Dimcairien Luiniel]

I too think a general announcement thread is a better option. All the kingdoms could have an IK HQ thread, maybe pinned to the top of their board for organizing teams/games/etc. That too could be routinely updated with the specific active games and teams and the name of a specific person to contact if that is needed.

[Narv]

Alright the global announcement thread looks like a fan favourite -- @Mor Toast are you still up for opening/editing it? I will global-announcify it.

I'm also fine with another global thread for IK Coordination / planning / getting-people's-attention-about-stuff - and if it turns out down the line there's so much planning that it appears to necessitate its own Inter Kingdom forum kind of thing, then we could do that. If no one has objections to that strategy, we can make that thread tomorrow.

Further input welcome as this is a rather small sample size of opinions right now! Whatever will make it easier for people to have fun on here is how I wanna do it.

[Thorin Firehelm]

I think a global announcement thread would be a good idea in the first instance. It just needs to be a simple thread detailing new initiatives. With the size we are now, it would be just the thing. As long as it is linked to on the main page so its obvious where it is.

[Burnt Toast]

@Narv Sounds good! Global announcement thread it is. Yes, I'm good to do so. Erm, where is best to start it?

[Narv]

Once I make it global it's show up everywhere anyway, so it doesn't really matter I think.. either Admin Messages or OOME. Admin messages is where the others went so maybe there? (It works if you think of it like Admin as in Administrative instead of Administrators )

[Burnt Toast]

Oops, I didn't see this, but had the same thoughts-- so I posted what I have so far-- am working on gathering more threads and editing them in currently.

Yup- posted it here in admin messages.

EDIT: Okay, whew. I've collected the links, and it should be a fairly thorough list. I'm sure I missed some stuff, but, my eyeballs are going to take a break now.

[Narv]

Looks awesome, thank you for making it!

[Burnt Toast]

lol, thanks for a making a site so there was a reason to make it XD

[Narv]

@Mor Toast and others: I made this thread: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=212

I hope it will be helpful for the kind of inter-kingdom planning that people may want to do. If it's not, let me know what changes might make it that way!

[Burnt Toast]

Thanks, Narv!

[Galastel]

If I may, can I request an improvement to the "save draft" feature? Don't get me wrong, I really appreciate having the option at all, we didn't use to have it on the plaza when I left. Still, at the moment, when I press "save draft", I have to then approve saving the draft, then I'm sent to the thread I was writing on but with all I've written now hidden, then I have to click "Full Editor & Preview", then load the draft. In total four redirects, with manual clicking and loading times between them. When what I would really like is a Ctrl+s.

Is there a way "save draft" could be made more transparent - not going off to different pages, not disappearing the text and making me reload it, just saving in the background?

(The loading part works just fine. It's simply unexpected that I should have to go through the process of loading every time I save a draft.)

[Narv]

Yeah I just tried it and that flow definitely sucks... unfortunately it's not likely I'll be able to do much to improve it, sorry. Or rather, it's possible that I could, but to do so I'd need to change the core phpBB code that the forum runs on, rather than just adding my own on top. Adding my own code is easy - that's how all the Kingdom/Rank stuff and the cosmetic appearance of the site works. But to change the drafts system I'd have to change files that aren't really meant to be changed, which could lead to bad bugs if I do it wrong or, even if I didn't screw it up, serious headaches whenever we have to do updates (which are super important to keep up with). I will do some research to see if there are any settings I can change to avoid that, but my guess is we'll have to wait for a phpBB version to come out that handles Drafts more intelligently.

[Winddancer]

Omg the save draft scared the crap out of me, I used it thinking it would just save in the background and it went through all those steps. Of course did it with a long post and just about died :P I just ctrl c it now before posting (cant write it in word, that annoys me as I need to see the post I am responding to :P)

[Mojo]

The Plaza taught me the value of ctrl a + ctrl c

[Lirimaer]

@Narv

Hello. Now I do realise that you are going to be more-than-busy from tomorrow, so think of this as a last minute request that I will wind my neck in about if you cannot do it immediately, or at all.

I was wondering if it would be easy to add a table to the full post editor. Because mostly I want to post something which would really like to be organised via a table. If you cannot, I will think of some other way to do it, verily. Please do not tie yourself in knots trying to do it.

And best wishes for tomorrow, if I somehow forget to come back here before then.

[Edit: I realise I can do this badly through c/p from word, I am just wondering if there can be anything done about the borders!)

[Winddancer]

As requested! Some way to display what pronoun you want people to use when talking to you, be it profile or lil icon somewhere.

[Narv]

@Winddancer thanks and we'll definitely look into something like that. Profile field is easy, an actual thing on posts (the equivalent of a reddit 'flair' or something) is probably harder and less likely (and probably wouldn't add much that a signature couldn't achieve) but we'll try to get something anyway - most likely a profile field.

@Lirimaer I played with the main phpBB 'table extension' this morning and it seemed like a whole lot of hassle to actually make a table with it :/ I can try to add it when I have time and you can be the judge of whether it's worth using or not, but unfortunately it doesn't look like a proper "click a Table button and a customizeable table pops up" is something that phpBB wants to support. I'll keep you posted on that

[Winddancer]

Noo didnt mean on the post, more like on the name bar.

[Narv]

Like beside where it says "Winddancer" on your post kinda thing? Or did you mean somewhere else?

[Lirimaer]

Thanks, hon. Don't worry about it too much. I decided to do it in word and turn it into a picture for now.

[Narv]

Cool cool, I'm glad my technical limitations are spurring so much creativity in the form of workarounds for stuff we don't have

[Lirimaer]

my terrible impatience ...

[Dimcairien Luiniel]

Found this gem in sifting through old photobucket stuff. Any chance of adding it to the plaza emoji options?

[Winddancer]

Like beside where it says "Winddancer" on your post kinda thing? Or did you mean somewhere else?

Yep somewhere thereabouts as you wont have to load a profile to see it :)

[Taethowen]

It has been brought up in the Discord that having a ranks page with ALL the Kingdom rank icons in one place would be a fantastic thing again. This is probably not urgent, but just something to add to the "things to think about" list. :D

[Galastel]

@Narv Thank you for the explanation re: draft saving! If we can't have it, then we can't.
Is some form of private message tool in the planning? I find I really miss this feature from the old plaza. It's very useful for roleplaying, be it for planning something with another person, or letting someone know they've misunderstood something I wrote.

[Silky Gooseness]

So, not Narv, but the reason we haven’t instituted private messaging is basically because a) it can’t be policed without admins reading PMs which is something we really don’t want to do, and b) we’re want to be careful about our legal responsibilities re people’s private data and privacy. There may be a way to share emails on profiles at some point? that would be optional, but any PMing system could always be turned off by the recipient as well. There’s also the @ tagging system we have on here for anything that isn’t private.

[Winddancer]

Do we need to police PMs?

[Silky Gooseness]

Do we need to police PMs?

My answer - which is not necessarily *the* answer - would be “Maybe”, which is why we haven’t included in PMs.

Why might we need to?

There’s the obvious reasons that people might be nasty to each other in private, or engage in gossiping, all of which people can find a way to do if they want to of course, but we’d rather it wasn’t on here. I’m not anticipating that people *will* do this. I think plazaites are Good People. But I don’t know everyone who has signed up or will signed up.

Other reasons: we’ve mentioned GDPR and other legally stuff that we have to abide by. Anything that looks like marketing, for example, might not be allowed. People’s right to be deleted from a place might be affected, if they’d sent PMs to someone else. Are we experts in this? No. So we don’t know for certain if this will cause problems without hiring actual experts. So, instead, we’ve just chosen not to open that can of worms for now and get Narv to code in more smileys instead. Incidentally I wanted the *shrugging haplessly* emoticon for this moment but it’s not here yet. So, *shrug haplessly

Hope that reasoning makes sense. Post not endorsed by Narv or Uruva.

[Winddancer]

Good enough for me, while it is something I would *like*, I can definitely manage without it and bound to be too much trouble this early on.

[Dimcairien Luiniel]

I've been using the DM function in discord for some of the private planning stuff/questions about RP things, though the biggest downside to it is 10 people is the max size. And set up group DMs there for the WS game I'm running. I know not everyone is on discord, but I think between that and Facebook Messenger, most people can figure out a way to easily contact each other for RP planning, etc. as needed.

[Almarëa Mordollwen]

If there was a PM system, there might also need to be a block function - e.g. if someone was not comfortable receiving PMs (either generally or from a specific person). Obviously I would hope it would not be needed, but I can reasonably foresee situations where it would be.

[Galastel]

Sil I'm not a legal expert either, but here's something to consider: when I joined the plaza, way back when, I was 15. My parents were fine with me doing whatever on this platform, so long as I didn't share any real contact details - not my e-mail, not my name, no pictures, not anything. I imagine for some people, particularly minors, this might still be a concern - it is not unreasonable for someone to want everything related to a platform to stay on that platform only. You mention harassment - if a user reports to an admin that they are being harassed by another user over PM, it should be relatively easy for the admin team to deal with it: kick the offender off the plaza, done. What do you do if the harassment continues by e-mail? In terms of safety, PM is safer than going off-platform for a private conversation.
Of course Almarëa Mordollwen's suggestion for a 'block' function (both "block this user" and "block all") is necessary, and could prevent a lot of problems.
In terms of the legal stuff - I've really no idea.

An unrelated question: you mention people's right to be deleted. How would that actually work? Can someone request all their posts be deleted? That could really break the readability of RP threads, but more than that - suppose that person's post has been quoted by another user, that's not going to be deleted, is it?
For comparison, on Stack Exchange a post can't be deleted (not even by the original poster, with rare exceptions), but the user's name can be removed from all posts, replaced with userID number. Is that how it's going to be on the Plaza as well?
Am I giving you a headache with an issue that's not likely to ever come up?

[Narv]

@Galastel actually you raise some excellent points that get at some important issues that are worth making clear.

There is a lot about the 'old plaza' that I actively tried to recreate on this site, but one thing that used to be a thing that I am definitely NOT bringing back is this: minors signing up and sharing personal information, either with the public or with me. There's an age gate on registration, and that's not just a technicality - whatever the old site was, this one is not a site for people under 16. Going forward, maybe that's something we could reconsider, but the legal landscape is different from 2002 and it would require a lot of admin effort to 1) obtain consent from parents, and 2) protect minor users' personal information. PM's can make that second part very difficult (without us reading PMs which is both weird and unrealistic), and can also make it hard to identify users who are minors even though they say they aren't (this area is more murky, but it's important from just an ethical standpoint regardless of legal stuff).

Re: right to be deleted. Legally, it's pretty questionable whether someone could really compel us to have all their posts deleted, versus just anonymized, versus just their account info deleted, etc etc. But as it states in the privacy policy, if someone requests total deletion I will do it regardless. It would definitely break the readability of some threads, but that's life (and I also don't anticipate this being a widely requested procedure). User mentions / quotes in other posts are pretty much impossible to scrub however, as are web crawls by search engines or the WayBack machine, which is why we do distinguish data that's actually collected by the site (email, IP address), from data that you voluntarily make 'publicly available' by posting in the fora. That said, if someone requests their info be removed from particular posts (that aren't theirs) we'll do our best to remove that too.

So the basic gist is: I'm leaning on the side of caution in lots of ways, which may well degrade user experience in some cases. There aren't many areas where I'll pull the "for justification, see my rank" card, but for ones where I potentially bear the brunt of legal responsibility, well... see my rank :smiley10:

PS one more thing about PMs. The crazy code that makes the posts look all plaza-like, in very picture-of-dorian-grey fashion, also make PMs look like absolute unreadable crap and it would take a lot of work to fix that. Combine that with all the stuff above, and you get the conclusion that discord and facebook (both of which have similar age restrictions as this site fyi) are the way to go for extraplazular contact.

[Narv]

in other critically important news @Aduchil your request to make text in Mordor somewhat legible has finally been granted thanks to Tarawen

[Galastel]

@Narv Got it. If it's a lot of work, we'll manage without.
In that case, can we have the option to have visible contact info in our profile? (For security, perhaps it should only be visible to registered users.)

[Aduchil]

Awesome, thanks Narv!

I don't know if my opinion on PM's matter, but I do think resources are better invested elsewhere on the plaza than implementing a PM system, since the PM function can be handled by external applications. We have about half the plaza as members on the discord alone, for instance. And with the notification feature, there is a way to guaranteed get someone's attention and organise some kind of IM contact.