Orpheus and the Harrowing of Hell in the Tale of Beren and Lúthien

[Ephtariat]

My new article, "Orpheus and the Harrowing of Hell in the Tale of Beren and Lúthien," is free to read and download from the website of the Mythlore academic journal.

Giovanni Carmine Costabile, "Orpheus and the Harrowing of Hell in the Tale of Beren and Lúthien." Mythlore, Vol. 42, No. 2, Article 5 (2024), pp. 61-84

Abstract: Critics have observed that Beren and Lúthien’s tale is a Christian retelling of the myth of Orpheus and Eurydice. The “Harrowing of Hell” tradition is widespread in Italy as attested by the mosaic of San Marco among others, but it is in France that the Ovid Moralized reconnects it to Orpheus who descended into the Underworld to save Eurydice (an already late antique parallel) and therefore attests a happy ending version of the story that can be found in medieval England and also in various classical sources, perhaps even in the original legend of Orpheus. The apocryphal Harrowing is also a recurring motif in the Anglo-Saxon and Middle English religious poetry that Tolkien studied. In short, Tolkien has a wealth of precedents in giving his Orpheus and Eurydice, i.e. Beren and Lúthien, a happy ending.

[Aikári Salmarinian]

Eph: Cool, I have look into it! Thank you for sharing.

[Priya]

Hello Ephtariat


Nice article - with an impressive amount of research!

It is interesting to note that Tolkien, in the same letter in which you cite an “a kind of Orpheus-legend in reverse”, used ‘Hell’ descriptively to describe a specific place in his mythology:

“… Beren is slain by the Wolf-warden of the Gates of Hell.” - Letter #153 (my underlined emphasis)

And also of significance:

“The North was the fortress of the Devil.” - Letter #294 (my underlined emphasis)

Use of such specific Christianized terminology is quite rare within dealings of his fictive world. I believe that Tolkien chose his words quite carefully - analogous intent though he may have had. Thus I tend to lean towards viewing the Professor’s ‘final’ mythological conception of ‘Hell’ (the ‘Devil’s’ abode) as being one confined to our physical planet - and not a distinct separate otherworld. Both Utumno and Angband were labeled as ‘Hell’ and both were underworlds, being subterranean in nature and aligned with classic Greek mythology (Hades), but nevertheless these dwellings were physically and firmly part of the Primary World.

One can certainly argue that Beren and Luthien in their successful venture in both entering and exiting ‘Hell’ and ‘stealing’ away a desired prize initially caused ‘Satan’ and his servants acute distress in effectively a ‘Harrowing of Hell’. Especially as the archaic definition of ‘harrow’ is to ‘pillage or plunder’. But that theme is totally separate from Beren’s return from death after Luthien’s appeal to Mandos which as Tolkien relates is semi-Orphic:

“… they both return to Middle-earth ‘alive’ … a kind of Orpheus legend in reverse …”. - Letter #153

The other thing I tend to believe is that there is no close Christ-like equivalent figure foreshadowing the ‘real deal’ within any of the legendarium’s mythology:

“The Incarnation of God is an infinitely greater thing than anything I would dare to write.” - Letter #181 (Tolkien’s italicized emphasis on ‘infinitely’).


It seems to me that Tolkien’s Beren and Luthien story did subtly contain (among many others) these two separate themes of ‘harrowing’ and the ‘pseudo Orpheus legend’. But that’s not quite the way you have considered/put matters in your article.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

“… Beren is slain by the Wolf-warden of the Gates of Hell.” - Letter #153 (my underlined emphasis)

Use of such specific Christianized terminology is quite rare within dealings of his fictive world.

...

It seems to me that Tolkien’s Beren and Luthien story did subtly contain (among many others) these two separate themes of ‘harrowing’ and the ‘pseudo Orpheus legend’. But that’s not quite the way you have considered/put matters in your article.

Hi Priya, I am not sure Ephtariat is reading this forum at the moment. But I'm breaking my Lore boycott, in part because Undertowers got busted, in part because I no longer care, but primarily because this discussion is interesting. I've just read the Mythlore article now - the research really is impressive! All this is far from my area of expertise, and my intuition is that your criticism is right. However, if anyone in Tolkien's Legendarium foreshadows Christ it is surely Luthien, no? So I am actually not sure what I think.

By the way, hell is not in fact a Christian but a native Germanic word - Tolkien in his Beowulf commentary tells that the heathen hell was the realm of all the dead. (A helrun is a necromancer; 'run' = secret (from conceal) so a helrun is one who knows the secrets of the realm of the dead.)

[Aikári Salmarinian]

Priya and Chrys: True, very uncertain he returns or read at all. I agree with both your thoughts. I am unfortunately not familiar with Orpheus. It is a good research though. I did read it, but neither though what really to think of it.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Aiks, the paper was for me a bit of a struggle to read at times when the wealth of research seemed to drown the argument.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

It is interesting to note that Tolkien, in the same letter in which you cite an “a kind of Orpheus-legend in reverse”, used ‘Hell’ descriptively to describe a specific place in his mythology:

“… Beren is slain by the Wolf-warden of the Gates of Hell.” - Letter #153 (my underlined emphasis)

It seems to me that Tolkien’s Beren and Luthien story did subtly contain (among many others) these two separate themes of ‘harrowing’ and the ‘pseudo Orpheus legend’. But that’s not quite the way you have considered/put matters in your article.

So, just to quote the passage from Letter 153.

In the primary story of Lúthien and Beren, Luthien is allowed as an absolute exception to divest herself of 'immonality' and become 'mortal' — but when Beren is slain by the Wolf-warden of the Gates of Hell, Lúthien obtains a brief respite in which they both return to Middle-earth 'alive' – though not mingling with other people : a kind of Orpheus-legend in reverse, but one of Pity not of Inexorability.

Luthien is no Incarnation; but 'an absolute exception'. Theologically, that is completely distinct. On Luthien's 'Orpheus-legend in reverse' and the Harrowing, I still do not have my head round it. (In fact, I feel utterly confused and bewildered by it.)

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Thus I tend to lean towards viewing the Professor’s ‘final’ mythological conception of ‘Hell’ (the ‘Devil’s’ abode) as being one confined to our physical planet - and not a distinct separate otherworld. Both Utumno and Angband were labeled as ‘Hell’ and both were underworlds, being subterranean in nature and aligned with classic Greek mythology (Hades), but nevertheless these dwellings were physically and firmly part of the Primary World.

One can certainly argue that Beren and Luthien in their successful venture in both entering and exiting ‘Hell’ and ‘stealing’ away a desired prize initially caused ‘Satan’ and his servants acute distress in effectively a ‘Harrowing of Hell’. Especially as the archaic definition of ‘harrow’ is to ‘pillage or plunder’. But that theme is totally separate from Beren’s return from death after Luthien’s appeal to Mandos which as Tolkien relates is semi-Orphic:

“… they both return to Middle-earth ‘alive’ … a kind of Orpheus legend in reverse …”. - Letter #153

Right. It has taken me a while to digest but I agree with this: 'Hell' in Tolkien's stories = the bad places of Morgoth and Sauron, and the Halls of Mandos are something quite other than Hell. What happens in the Halls of Mandos is in the nature of a miracle (an exception) but is not a foreshadowing of the Christian tradition of Christ's Easter Harrowing of Hell as a triumph over Death.

One day hopefully @Ephtariat you will return to this thread that you began with your Mythlore article. I do not claim to understand all of it but I do line up in agreement with Priya's points. And I add that, by way of my point above about 'hell' as a pre-Christian Old English word, the wider issues at stake in these readings of Tolkien feed into your avoiding engagement with Tolkien's profound study of the Old English poem Beowulf. The crevices of the footnotes to 'Beowulf: the Monsters and the Critics' are filled with insights into the meaning of 'hell' in the poem, and those insights find parallels and correlates in Tolkien's mythological world that illuminate the difference between Angband in Thangorodrim and the Halls of Mandos.

[Priya]

Greetings Chrysophylax Dives

Firstly let me say, that I for one - am delighted you’re back!

Thank you for reminding me that ‘Hell’ crops up in Beowulf. I recall the term/name from Norse legends where after Baldur’s death, Hermod seeks Hel (both the god and place) to retrieve his soul.

Right. It has taken me a while to digest but I agree with this: 'Hell' in Tolkien's stories = the bad places of Morgoth and Sauron, and the Halls of Mandos are something quite other than Hell. What happens in the Halls of Mandos is in the nature of a miracle (an exception) but is not a foreshadowing of the Christian tradition of Christ's Easter Harrowing of Hell as a triumph over Death.

I too wholeheartedly agree - though with Sauron, I think his intention was to turn all of Earth into Hell (per the Barrow Wight’s incantation). So Chrys & Aiks - Right now, there appears to be a disconnect in Ephtariat’s article. But perhaps I am (we are) missing something which he might be able to explain?


As to:

However, if anyone in Tolkien's Legendarium foreshadows Christ it is surely Luthien, no?

I’m curious to understand your viewpoint. Can you expand on this? Perhaps provide us with some reasons?

[Chrysophylax Dives]

I too wholeheartedly agree - though with Sauron, I think his intention was to turn all of Earth into Hell (per the Barrow Wight’s incantation).

Good to be talking with you here, Priya!
On Luthien foreshadowing Christ, I can neither expand nor give reasons. The thought basically reflects my efforts over quite a while to understand what Ephtariat is saying, which seems to touch on gender as well as divinity and, so far as I can make out, is the thesis that Tolkien's fantasy has to do with the female face of God, with the story of Beren and Luthien somehow exemplifying this. @Ephtariat - I am not attributing any of these views to you, and I invite you to put your own views better; but this is a reflection of my confused attempt to understand your views, and they got me to a connection of Luthien and Christ. But that was before I had digested your comments, Priya, and I would now say that we are looking at miraculous exception with Luthien in the Halls of Mandos, but no more.

On Hell: I do think this concept is worth considering further. Aside from anything else, I think it is a central concept in Tolkien's reading of Beowulf - and I will try to gather my thoughts on this and report. But I certainly agree that Sauron aims to make all of Middle-earth into Hell (on earth) - and the Barrow-wight incantation gives a nice illustration.

One thing about hell in Beowulf (as Tolkien reads it) is that it is also a psychological state - the heathen heroes like Hrothgar and Beowulf do actually know about God (in the world of the poem) but they do not know much more - they do not grasp what Heaven is, and they certainly have not heard the Gospels - therefore, they are estranged from God, they have hell in their hearts.

I think LotR combines these two notions of hell-on-earth, one that is made by Sauron and another that is made in our hearts when we act out of hate and lust for domination, etc.

If you take the big historical picture and place the world of the Beowulf poem as the age intermediary between the 3 Ages of Middle-earth (of the stories) and the historical world in which (for a Christian) the Incarnation became historical fact, then from a human point of view, the Elves and the light of the Valar is that which was given to the pre-Christian world to save them from (a) the hell in their hearts, because of which they were liable to (b) make all the earth into hell.

[Priya]

Hello Chrysophylax Dives

Okay - I think we can safely relax further discussion on Luthien/Christ parallels. I don’t have much to add on this matter. But I’m not exactly sure what you meant by:

Luthien is no Incarnation; but 'an absolute exception'. Theologically, that is completely distinct.

I will quote this though:

“Immortality and Mortality being the special gifts of God to the Eruhini (in whose conception and creation the Valar had no part at all) it must be assumed that no alteration to their fundamental kind could be affected by the Valar even in one case; the cases of Luthien (and Tuor) and their descendants were a direct act of God.” - Letter #153 (my underlined emphasis)

So though Mandos (with Manwe) pleaded on Luthien’s behalf, Beren was allowed to return to life by the grace of God, and as part of a divine plan. Yes, I agree - a miracle!

We know the Halls of Mandos for mortal spirits were just temporary quarters until an appointed departure from the World. A kind of purgatory from what I can gather. Mandos’s jurisdiction/powers over the souls of Men (in comparison to Elves) appears then to have been limited. But we can’t say for sure.

It isn’t made plain whether he was judge and jury over the spirits of Men. Though Doomsman of the Valar - did he pronounce a final doom over deceased mortals? Was he a ‘weigher’ of their souls?

Even though we were told Mandos didn’t possess the power or authority to detain them forever, did he send the good sort on to Eru’s Timeless Halls (basically heaven)? Were the bad bunch directed to the Void - a kind of hell? Tolkien doesn’t elaborate - unless I’ve missed something?

In any case, I don’t view Mandos’s subterranean Halls of Awaiting for Men (from which Beren emerged) as anywhere near to an orthodox Christian Hell but instead much more akin to Hades of the Orpheus legend. Particularly as Tolkien said of the Ainur who entered Arda:

“… the great among them became the equivalent of the ‘gods’ of traditional mythologies; …”. - Letter #200 (Tolkien’s emphasis on ‘gods’, my underlined emphasis)

Mandos roughly approximates to the Greek god Hades then?

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Luthien is no Incarnation; but 'an absolute exception'. Theologically, that is completely distinct.

I can see why you might ask the meaning of such a statement (as in, it is not clear at all). All I meant was that rather than Luthien's story anticipating the Incarnation of Christ, what it reveals is a miracle (an exception). In general, I am not very practiced with theological language, nor concepts. But I do find the point here interesting, not least because it suggests that a miracle in Arda is always to be attributed to Eru alone.

“Immortality and Mortality being the special gifts of God to the Eruhini (in whose conception and creation the Valar had no part at all) it must be assumed that no alteration to their fundamental kind could be affected by the Valar even in one case; the cases of Luthien (and Tuor) and their descendants were a direct act of God.” - Letter #153 (my underlined emphasis)

So though Mandos (with Manwe) pleaded on Luthien’s behalf, Beren was allowed to return to life by the grace of God, and as part of a divine plan. Yes, I agree - a miracle!

How many such miracles are to be found? I can count three: Beren and Luthien, Numenor, Gollum on Mount Doom. That would be one miracle in each age. But am I missing some?

Maybe Frodo and Bilbo sailing on the last ship is a miracle?

I copy and paste a curious discussion from the unfinished 'Lost Road' (1936) that seems relevant (with the invisible stairs coloured due to my own research interests and a very curious anticipation of the metaphor in the 1964 letter to Przemysław Mroczkowski coloured just for you )

In a wide shadowy place he heard a voice.
‘Elendil!’ it said. ‘Alboin, whither are you wandering?’
‘Who are you?’ he answered. ‘And where are you?’
A tall figure appeared, as if descending an unseen stair towards him. For a moment it flashed through his thought that the face, dimly seen, reminded him of his father.
‘I am with you. I was of Númenor, the father of many fathers before you. I am Elendil, that is in Eressëan “Elf- friend”, and many have been called so since. You may have your desire.’
‘What desire?’
‘The long-hidden and the half-spoken: to go back.’
‘But that cannot be, even if I wish it. It is against the law.’
‘It is against the rule. Laws are commands upon the will and are binding. Rules are conditions; they may have exceptions.’
‘But are there ever any exceptions?’
‘Rules may be strict, yet they are the means, not the ends, of govemment. There are exceptions; for there is that which govems and is above the rules. Behold, it is by the chinks in the wall that light comes through, whereby men become aware of the light and therein perceive the wall and how it stands. The veil is woven, and each thread goes an appointed course, tracing a design; yet the tissue is not impenetrable, or the design would not be guessed; and if the design were not guessed, the veil would not be perceived, and all would dwell in darkness. But these are old parables, and I came not to speak such things. The world is not a machine that makes other machines after the fashion of Sauron. To each under the rule some unique fate is given, and he is excepted from that which is a rule to others. I ask if you would have your desire?’

[Chrysophylax Dives]

We know the Halls of Mandos for mortal spirits were just temporary quarters until an appointed departure from the World. A kind of purgatory from what I can gather. Mandos’s jurisdiction/powers over the souls of Men (in comparison to Elves) appears then to have been limited. But we can’t say for sure.

It isn’t made plain whether he was judge and jury over the spirits of Men. Though Doomsman of the Valar - did he pronounce a final doom over deceased mortals? Was he a ‘weigher’ of their souls?

Even though we were told Mandos didn’t possess the power or authority to detain them forever, did he send the good sort on to Eru’s Timeless Halls (basically heaven)? Were the bad bunch directed to the Void - a kind of hell? Tolkien doesn’t elaborate - unless I’ve missed something?

In any case, I don’t view Mandos’s subterranean Halls of Awaiting for Men (from which Beren emerged) as anywhere near to an orthodox Christian Hell but instead much more akin to Hades of the Orpheus legend. Particularly as Tolkien said of the Ainur who entered Arda:

“… the great among them became the equivalent of the ‘gods’ of traditional mythologies; …”. - Letter #200 (Tolkien’s emphasis on ‘gods’, my underlined emphasis)

Mandos roughly approximates to the Greek god Hades then?

That all sounds right. So far, then, we seem to have: (a) Halls of Mandos = approx. Hades (both place and god who resides over the place, right?); (b) hell in Arda = Arda remade by Morgoth and Sauron (as in, their will is to make everywhere a realm of the dead, where this realm is the ancient northern hel); (c) the Christian Hell does not figure in Arda.

Are we in agreement on these? (It is not that I am wedded to any one, it is just this is what we seem to have established.)

@Ephtariat, I know you will come back and read this discussion of your Mythlore paper - no author could resist! We are very much in your debt for such an erudite paper that brings into focus such key ideas of the legendarium, but we do seem to have substantial disagreement with your concrete thesis.

My intuition - at this point, no more - is that you are not noticing the cardinal distinction between immortality and eternity by which Tolkien distinguishes between the realm of ancient myth (Greek and northern) and the philosophical vision of Plato, which was woven into Christianity. The distinction is spelled out in 'Beowulf: the Monsters and the Critics' as an explanation of how a Christian reimagined the heathen myths, and seems to illuminate (a), (b), and (c) above. At root is the idea (which I think @Rivvy Elf has admirably grasped) that we mortals are guests in this world - our true home is Eternity. As such, we are supernatural beings. The Elves, by contrast, are wholly natural - bound to this world, immortal. Tolkien remakes and reshapes and reimagines anything and everything that is to do with this world and so within the realm of immortality; but of eternity he is silent except when he has no choice (creation myth, and world-turning miracles).

So of what awaits you and I after death, this concerns the realm of eternity, and is wholly outside the world of Tolkien's stories, which are focused on immortality, which is to say the world, which is to say Elves.

In a nutshell, there is no 'heaven' in Tolkien's mythology, there are two versions of a mythological hell (Halls of Mandos and 'Mordor'), but they are conceived in the image of the ancient Greek Hades and/or the ancient northern hel, and the Christian 'hell', being another dimension of eternity, has no place in the world of the stories (it is neither affirmed nor denied, only unknown.)

[Aikári Salmarinian]

"So Chrys & Aiks - Right now, there appears to be a disconnect in Ephtariat’s article. But perhaps I am (we are) missing something which he might be able to explain?"

Priya: Aye, I would ask, where exactly do you read a disconnect in Eph's arcticle? Can you give a quote or page on that?

I found something that might sum matters up in the article what Tolkien's approach(es) could have been according Eph.

Instead Tolkien follows the original pagan legend in some respects, such as:

Classical Orpheus legend
1) a desperate appeal to a Lord (and/or Lady) of the Dead instead of an entirely triumphal entrance defeating him;
2) the release of souls from the dead through singing a heartbreaking song instead of preaching to them or simply calling them;
3) the reduction of the number of released souls to only include the releaser’s spouse;
4) the releaser is partly divine;
5) the release of the dead is meant as a return to Earth, not Heaven;
6) the release of the dead is conceded as exceptional;
7) the release of the dead is conceded upon inescapable conditions.

On the other hand, Tolkien conforms to the tradition of the Harrowing of Hell and to the Christian reinterpretation of the Orpheus legend in the following respects:

Harrowing of Hell and Christian Orpheus
a) the releaser is partly divine;
b) the releaser is also a dead person visiting the Underworld, not a living visitor;
c) the releaser voluntarily died, sacrificing themselves for the sake of the dead to be saved;
d) the releaser, however dead, is technically immortal;
e) the Lord of the Dead, who is not evil, and the Devil, evil by definition, are two, sharply distinguished, persons, and the former is convinced, while the latter is defeated;
f) the releaser was always meant to succeed;
g) the happy ending.

From what we gathered from such a survey, it appears that the lists previously compiled should be updated, by also adding the traits Tolkien borrowed from the reconstructed original version:

Original Orpheus legend
I. the release of souls from the dead through singing a heartbreaking song instead of preaching to them or simply calling them;
II. the releaser is partly divine;
III. the release of the dead is meant as a return to Earth, not Heaven;
IV. the happy ending;
V. the suggestion of an afterlife of bliss for both releaser and released;
VI. the releaser’s enterprise is connected to a mysterious divine plan.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Aiks, I leave @Priya to answer your specific question as to disconnect.

I suspect it may not be too far-fetched to suspect that Beren has something about him of Dismas, being the “Good Thief” of a Silmaril, and being the one who understood Lúthien’s worth at first sight without being told, even from afar, in the darkness, pretty much as Dismas realized Jesus was God even though the latter was crucified like the former, as a common criminal. (p. 66)

What Priya has helped me to see is that this kind of comparison made by Eph. in the article is not warranted. OK, there may be this similarity or that likeness, but Tolkien cannot have intended Luthien to foreshadow Christ/God, and to think so is to overlook Tolkien's distinction between Eternity beyond the walls of the world and the immortal realm within those walls.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

@Ephtariat has suggested in his neutral angel thread that Tolkien believed that Elves were real and, as such, were neutral angels. On whether Tolkien believed Elves were real, I find it hard to think about that one. But by virtue of the distinction I have made above between immortality and eternity, the Elves of Tolkien's stories are not - in any way, shape, or form - neutral angels; and this because they are not angels of any kind. Angels are messengers, sent from the Eternal realm to speak to those within the immortal realm, and as such any ladder they ascend or descend takes them from one realm to the other. Within Tolkien's stories, it makes sense to say of the Valar that they are angelic in just this sense (although it seems they cannot climb back out again); but it makes no sense to consider the Elves in this way, they who are but the first-born children, akin to you and I, if distantly.

Basically, I am starting to see the root issue between you and I, @Ephtariat, is not whether Elves are real (I'm happy to go either way) but what it means for us mortals to aspire to be an Elf-friend. For you this is a spiritual aspiration and a religious activity, conceived in a 'Song of Songs' way as an ultimate romance and union with God. For my part, I'm more than happy to be an Elf-friend, but I deem Elves as more like distant relatives from a long forgotten branch of the family tree. In real life, I don't know that much of my family genealogy, the threads get lost all too quickly, but I am aware of a fair multitude of bad eggs, and to be blunt, I suspect more than half of these so-called Elves are really goblins. But I keep an open mind, you know, and recognize that this distant family lived in different times and places, when things were more wild and brother slew brother and all that.

[Priya]

Hello Aiks

Ephtariat’s conclusion most certainly raises my eyebrows:

“… Tolkien here came the closest he could to portray the Resurrection of Christ in Middle-earth …”.

What I’m interpreting from this is that Ephtariat’s end diagnosis is Tolkien planned to deliberately use the character of Luthien to foreshadow Christ. Weakly or strongly - is not the issue, right now. It’s the prognosis itself which is a little difficult to swallow. Mainly because the proposal is directly in contradiction to Tolkien’s assertion that:

“The Incarnation of God is an ‘infinitely’ greater thing than anything I would dare to write.” - Letter #181, 1956 (Tolkien’s emphasis)

This is the primary disconnect I see.

Elaborating a bit more - it’s clear that in 1956 Tolkien would not have ‘dared’ to consider ever incarnating God into his mythology. There is little reason, given how he stressed the word ‘infinitely’, to believe he would have been open to the possibility some 40 years earlier. Was Tolkien’s mindset towards his faith radically different in his youth? I don’t know of any persuasively strong evidence out there. Does anyone else?

So though Ephtariat proposes paths - I’m reluctant to buy them. Factual evidence (the content of Letter #181) takes precedence, for me, over theorizing (until/unless further contradictory information comes to light).

A secondary disconnect is the ‘harrowing of hell’ theme appears to be more appropriate to attribute to Luthien and Beren’s raid on Morgoth’s underground fortress. No such connection was made/documented.

Tolkien told us how the tale of Luthien Tinuviel and Beren has its roots in his own love-story, and was conceived c. 1917 during or shortly after romantic meetings with Edith in a woodland glade. To, in effect, then include aspects of her persona in his mythology (via Luthien) and so shortly after the trysts, color/model the young woman he was madly in love with, with a purposely thought out Christ complexion - is to be frank - quite a stretch.

I hope Ephtariat takes any quibbles constructively - as there is no intent to offend. Some balance, by including a few ‘cons’ would have been a fair and nice addition. But what I will say nevertheless, is that the article is outstanding for its content - particularly praiseworthy is the furnished apocrypha surrounding Jesus post-death/pre-resurrection.

[Priya]

Hello Chrysophylax Dives

How many such miracles are to be found? I can count three: Beren and Luthien, Numenor, Gollum on Mount Doom. That would be one miracle in each age. But am I missing some?

Never thought about this too much. Off the top of my head - I would count Eru giving Aule’s dwarves souls/sentient life - as another miracle.

Maybe Frodo and Bilbo sailing on the last ship is a miracle?

Not according to Letter #246:

“For any except those of Elvish race 'sailing West' was not permitted, and any exception required 'authority' … No doubt it was Gandalf who was the ‘authority …”.

Thank you for The Lost Road passage. It seems pertinent and I’m contemplating it in relation to Bombadil and different planes of reality.

That all sounds right. So far, then, we seem to have: (a) Halls of Mandos = approx. Hades (both place and god who resides over the place, right?); (b) hell in Arda = Arda remade by Morgoth and Sauron (as in, their will is to make everywhere a realm of the dead, where this realm is the ancient northern hel); (c) the Christian Hell does not figure in Arda.

Are we in agreement on these? (It is not that I am wedded to any one, it is just this is what we seem to have established.)

Agreed!

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Tolkien told us how the tale of Luthien Tinuviel and Beren has its roots in his own love-story, and was conceived c. 1917 during or shortly after romantic meetings with Edith in a woodland glade. To, in effect, then include aspects of her persona in his mythology (via Luthien) and so shortly after the trysts, color/model the young woman he was madly in love with, with a purposely thought out Christ complexion - is to be frank - quite a stretch.

Aiks, as you know, I find it hard not to throw my pennies into the hat too.

Basically, I agree the stretch is too far - and have advanced my theoretical reason for rejecting Eph.'s proposed parallel of Luthien and Christ. Nevertheless, I do have the sense that Eph. is working his way to a coherent thesis. From what I can make out, this thesis is that Tolkien's art of fantasy was a revisionist Catholic art. Revisionist, because Tolkien rejected the image of woman carved into notions of (male) 'fantasy' since Augustine (following here the chivalrous piety of the Gawain poet), and Catholic because the mythology is Catholic.

Myself, I'm still feeling my way round all this. But the recent discussion with Priya has connected some dots to my own research and I think that the claim that 'Tolkien's mythology is Catholic' is faulty and wrong and to be rejected. Tolkien was a Catholic, and Tolkien invented a mythology; but while the act of sub-creation was for Tolkien a (Catholic) religious act, the content of the mythology is NOT Catholic - it is something else.

On the other hand, I do have an intuition that Ephtariat has seen something important with regard to the tradition of Christian and ancient Greek philosophical discussion of 'fantasy', and that gender is indeed at the heart of Tolkien's Catholic revisionism. In other words, while it is wrongheaded to think of the mythology as a Catholic mythology - and leads to the confusion of placing the Devil's Hell in Valinor and equating Luthien with Christ - it seems correct, and illuminating, to consider Tolkien as reacting against, or reworking, a Catholic tradition concerning Fantasy.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Tolkien told us how the tale of Luthien Tinuviel and Beren has its roots in his own love-story, and was conceived c. 1917 during or shortly after romantic meetings with Edith in a woodland glade. To, in effect, then include aspects of her persona in his mythology (via Luthien) and so shortly after the trysts, color/model the young woman he was madly in love with, with a purposely thought out Christ complexion - is to be frank - quite a stretch.

This really is the heart of it, and soon we must press Ephtariat to speak in his own words. But speaking for myself, while I certainly agree that as a matter of fact this is a stretch too far, and that Tolkien absolutely did not project Christ into Luthien or Luthien into Christ, I do wonder about him and Edith, and so leave the door open for a roundabout connection.

Unlike Ephtariat, I really do NOT know what I am talking about when it comes to Catholicism. But 'The Song of Songs' is a love poem in the Bible that has long been read in terms of our mystical relationship with God. Within those readings the road is always open to return back again, from God to the mortal beloved of the love poem, and discover divinity within mortal love. Ephtariat seems to have taken this road, and is convinced that in doing so he is following in the footsteps of Tolkien. I do have the intuition that he is right on something here - though I am still not quite sure what it is.

[Aikári Salmarinian]

Priya: Aye, I never associated God into the works of Tolkien or felt it anywhere. So yes, you are definite right Tolkien never dared it. On the other hand he created thus something unique and original to it, yes I believe so. I understand your reasons behind the disconnects. I skimmed through the article with a bit of quick eye. All the indepth talk of Christianity is not my cup of tea. I found a nice summary I posted. I took once my own Vanyar through a process to visit Morgoth's fortress in the Old Days in roleplay. It is vast, utterly dark place devoid of any light of the Valar, except for the light coming from the fires otherwise the Orcs can't see where they walk. If you can't imagine, write about it.

"Tolkien told us how the tale of Luthien Tinuviel and Beren has its roots in his own love-story, and was conceived c. 1917 during or shortly after romantic meetings with Edith in a woodland glade. To, in effect, then include aspects of her persona in his mythology (via Luthien) and so shortly after the trysts, color/model the young woman he was madly in love with, with a purposely thought out Christ complexion - is to be frank - quite a stretch." - Affirmative It is very believable he based his relation with Edith as model for the Luthien/Beren bond. But if you are on the road of love, there is not a thought of God around at such moments. It might off course that it was interpreted as the Lord's Will John and Edith would be together in life, but they weren't conscious of that. It is another discussion with a smile.

If there is a really miracle, yes it was Eru's action to adopt the Dwarves as his children. A detail I loved always. Numenor was gift of the Valar for the the efforts of the Edain in the battles of Beleriand. The other two I see as extra ordinary events, but not as miracles.

Chrys: Right, very perhaps there is distant connection between Luthien and the virgin lady Maria, Jesus' mother? Or another female character from the Old and/or New Testament? That is something I could buy a bit, based on the holiness and the gender issue. But not Jesus Christus himself. Swapping genders is impossible in Middle Earth. I intend to follow Tolkien's reasons, he motivated them, if he did?

True on your second paragraph, I could not say it better.

I have no idea really what Eph really sees in the Greek and Christian mythologies, so I am not stepping into a hypothetical discussion as I only can do this: I think we should better turn to Tolkien what he ever said about it. Or what has been left behind in his letters, notes and interviews.

[Rivvy Elf]

The foreshadowing of Christ isn’t through Beren and Luthien. The foreshadowing of a Christ-like figure is explicitly referenced in the Discussion between Finrod and Andreth, where Andreth brings up the old hope that Eru would someday enter Arda and fix the Fall of Man and fix Arda Marred.

It makes no sense from a writing perspective to also use Beren and Luthien as a foreshadowing for Christ because 1. Their aim wasn’t to save the world or humanity, their goal was to extend their limited time together before they faced the unknown of death. 2. At root their motivations were self-serving and not altruistic in nature. 3. The immediate aftermath of this tale is the disaster known as the Battle of Unnumbered Tears.

And most importantly, the foreshadowing of a Christ-like figure was already directly mentioned elsewhere with direct reasoning that makes sense given the literary context.

Furthermore, when Beren found Luthien one needs to remember the context. Beren was homeless, did-not-shower-for-the-longest-time, in grief, starving, thirsty, probably nearing delirium, and would’ve been arrested for harassment if he showed up in the modern day calling you some weird name that could be misinterpreted as a slur. At this point in the story, If you replaced Luthien with Nellas, Mablung, Ghan-buri-Ghan, one of Queen Beruthiel’s Cats, or Bilbo I bet he would’ve been calling them fancy names too out of desperation.

If anything Luthien is the one that sees that this ragged-looking bum was a worthy person. She’s the Dismas in that situation.

[Rivvy Elf]

Another miracle would be Earendil and Elwing. That’s the story I’d argue that is several times more important than Beren and Luthien to the history of middle-earth.