The Amazon Series: the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly [NO SPOILERS]

[The Good Hunter]

Re-upping the thread.

There is a lot to look forward to in the series based on the posters and the teaser, but as always, there's a lot of caution as to how things will be approached, changed, adapted as with any adaptation, visual or otherwise.

Myself, I have hopes it will be decent, but overall I'm pessimistic as to whether or not it can be pulled off.

[Winddancer]

I was all for it when I heard it was coming, hoping that at least it would be visually stunning, even if they changed things. Not that I would likely know, as I didnt super study the appendices. Though I did think they were doing the Silmarillion, so was surprised to hear they didnt get the rights to that and basically have the same rights as PJ had, right?

From the teaser trailer my biggest gripe is portraying Galadriel like an action hero/superhero, but could live with it I guess. But that Elrond?? NO!

[Romeran]

As with WD I'm most excited about the visuals. I expect they will take many liberties with the story (given that the Appendices are quite sparse) but I hope that they capture some of the spirit of the tales, that they at least provide a visually inspiring take on the stories.

I get the concern around giving viewers a "false" (in the sense that it's not within the "Tolkien Cannon" dubious though that concept might be) sense of what happened can skew perceptions. And I'm sympathetic to this concern. At the same time, if this gets some people to actually read and enjoy the Lord of the Rings (or any related material) that wouldn't have otherwise (like the movies did) then I'll be happy. And as long as they don't egregiously change the spirit of the stories (details aside) I'll be happy.

I too am curious about the action hero Galadriel, I don't think she's really explicitly described as fighting, but in an attempt to show a powerful female character I think it's okay because, after all, Galadriel is a powerful female character if not directly by combat but perhaps a modern audience would appreciate her being more directly portrayed as involved in some of the fighting.

[Winddancer]

Well I am of the firm belief that you can most definitely portray a woman as powerful, without having her fight. As far as I know (which isnt far, granted..) Galadriel doesnt fight in a battle, so why is she wearing armour like she is? I would love to see more winning a battle of wits, rather than brute force. I know I know, I just mean in regards to her. She just seems someone above fighting with a sword and doing it with her mind instead.

[Romeran]

Well I am of the firm belief that you can most definitely portray a woman as powerful, without having her fight. As far as I know (which isnt far, granted..) Galadriel doesnt fight in a battle, so why is she wearing armour like she is? I would love to see more winning a battle of wits, rather than brute force. I know I know, I just mean in regards to her. She just seems someone above fighting with a sword and doing it with her mind instead.

Yeah I agree with you.

But to me it's like when the elves come to Helm's Deep. Did they come to Helm's Deep? No. But they were fighting and this was a way to tell the audience that the elves weren't just sitting on their laurels.

I do agree that you certainly don't have to have her fighting in order to portray her as a powerful character, but I think modern audiences have pushed against it being basically only men fighting and have come to expect to see powerful "fighting women". But there are some in LotR (Eowyn is a good example) and Galadriel seems an interesting choice (not my first choice) but I guess it's one of the few characters that audiences might be familiar with, which is my guess as to why she was chosen as opposed to picking "elf # 123" to do the job.

[The Good Hunter]

I do agree that you certainly don't have to have her fighting in order to portray her as a powerful character, but I think modern audiences have pushed against it being basically only men fighting and have come to expect to see powerful "fighting women". But there are some in LotR (Eowyn is a good example) and Galadriel seems an interesting choice (not my first choice) but I guess it's one of the few characters that audiences might be familiar with, which is my guess as to why she was chosen as opposed to picking "elf # 123" to do the job.

Emphasis mine. Exactly my thoughts as well. Galadriel, thanks to Cate Blanchett's portrayals is well known outside of the hardcore fandom, and since she does have a part to play in the story (minor but obviously to be expanded and expounded) it seems the obvious choice.

As far as her fighting in battles, I don't know of any specific references to her fighting but from context, she very well could have fought in the Third Battle as Fingolfin and co just crossed the Ice and were set on by orcs and she was in that crowd. There's also some chance she did some fighting in Eregion before it was wiped out. That being said, I do want to see portrayals of women that are more clever than fighty. The lazy, go to when trying to make a woman "strong" is by having them be fighty and gruff, I see "strong" women as fully realized, they can be fighty, but they can be clever, sneaky, scared, foolhardy, wild, etc.

[Elenhir]

I too am curious about the action hero Galadriel, I don't think she's really explicitly described as fighting, but in an attempt to show a powerful female character I think it's okay because, after all, Galadriel is a powerful female character if not directly by combat but perhaps a modern audience would appreciate her being more directly portrayed as involved in some of the fighting.

She is. There are many references to her fighting in the First Kinslaying, across multiple texts, including ones where the word 'fighting' is explicitly used. In these versions she fights against Feanor's assault.

Moreover, I think the grounds for concern falls a bit flat when we consider Elrond. While he, like Galadriel, does occasionally lead an army or perform actions during battles, we have zero quotes that demonstrate the nitty-gritty of fighting. Instead, we have additional support for the idea that he wouldn't fight, because in 'Laws and Customs Among the Eldar', Tolkien remarks upon the negative impact on the healing arts when one takes life. Elrond is recognized in the text as a great healer. Now, this is Tolkien branching into philosophical matters, so as par for the course there are many instances where we see he had previously written characters that break the philosophical rules and explicitly do both, but the point is that Elrond does not explicitly do both. We never see him kill. We never are told that he has physically fought. So if were capable of imagining him swinging a sword and doing violence and acting as a warrior, the same should hold true (and more true) for Galadriel.

[Fuin Elda]

there are some in LotR (Eowyn is a good example) and Galadriel seems an interesting choice (not my first choice) but I guess it's one of the few characters that audiences might be familiar with, which is my guess as to why she was chosen as opposed to picking "elf # 123" to do the job.

As frost has said I will also agree with this. I think it's very possible the directors and producers took a very solid look at how Tauriel was reacted to and went we have a perfectly good character here. Let's go with her and quite possibly they would have looked and even the quote that has been thrown about a fair bit about her wits and athleticism even if they can't use it directly it's a solid argument for it. I think there are also quotes of her wanting to be the master of her own domain somewhere but alas I am at work and without the silm or ut which is where I think I read that. I shall try to find it if others don't first once I get home. (Loop Elenhir has not beat me to these quotes but has referenced something far better and reminded me of those lines about her fighting)

@Elenhir from the last thread re: Disa. That is something mildly annoying it would have been better if they'd gone with Dis II instead as that may have played to the indiscernible men from women without the beards as well as there are very few women that take on 'the *insert number*' and it tends to denote exceptional importance when they do.


Also thanks Frost for reopening this thread

[The Good Hunter]

@Elenhir from the last thread re: Disa. That is something mildly annoying it would have been better if they'd gone with Dis II instead as that may have played to the indiscernible men from women without the beards as well as there are very few women that take on 'the *insert number*' and it tends to denote exceptional importance when they do.

Beardless dwarven women is a travesty that cannot be understated, formulaic, bland names like "Disa" only adds insult to injury. Given that the original 13 dwarves were taken directly from Norse mythology, why couldn't Amazon do the same and give something like Skadi?

[Romeran]

I too am curious about the action hero Galadriel, I don't think she's really explicitly described as fighting, but in an attempt to show a powerful female character I think it's okay because, after all, Galadriel is a powerful female character if not directly by combat but perhaps a modern audience would appreciate her being more directly portrayed as involved in some of the fighting.

She is. There are many references to her fighting in the First Kinslaying, across multiple texts, including ones where the word 'fighting' is explicitly used. In these versions she fights against Feanor's assault.

Consider me corrected.

So I started digging around.

"Even after the merciless assault upon the Teleri and the rape of their ships, though she [Galadriel] fought fiercely against Fëanor in defence of her mother's kin, she did not turn back. Her pride was unwilling to return, a defeated suppliant for pardon; but now she burned with desire to follow Fëanor with her anger to whatever lands he might come, and to thwart him in all ways that she could" (UT, my emphasis)

Here I think because they're talking about the assault this must mean actual fighting.

"In Fëanor's revolt that followed the Darkening of Valinor Galadriel had no part: indeed she with Celeborn fought heroically in defence of Alqualondë against the assault of the Noldor, and Celeborn's ship was saved from them. " (UT, my emphasis)

Another quote which would seem to describe heroic fighting.

Then later in Morgoth's Ring

"Marginal note against the passage describing the involvement of the second host in the fighting: 'Finrod and Galadriel (whose husband was of the Teleri) fought against Feanor in defence of Alqualonde.' On this see the very late note (1973) of my father's concerning Galadriel's conduct at the time of the rebellion of the Noldor in Unfinished 'Tales, pp. 231 - 2: 'In Feanor's revolt that followed the Darkening of Valinor Galadriel had no part: indeed she with Celeborn fought heroically" (MR, my emphasis)

So yeah @Elenhir is totally right it seems she certainly fought at the kinslaying (against Fëanor)

[Romeran]

@Elenhir from the last thread re: Disa. That is something mildly annoying it would have been better if they'd gone with Dis II instead as that may have played to the indiscernible men from women without the beards as well as there are very few women that take on 'the *insert number*' and it tends to denote exceptional importance when they do.

Excuse the double post due to simul but yeah why on earth they chose to add an "a" to the name -- I also guess that it's likely some odd attempt to make it seem "feminine" -- is particularly irritating to me for some reason...

[Fuin Elda]

@Elenhir from the last thread re: Disa. That is something mildly annoying it would have been better if they'd gone with Dis II instead as that may have played to the indiscernible men from women without the beards as well as there are very few women that take on 'the *insert number*' and it tends to denote exceptional importance when they do.

Beardless dwarven women is a travesty that cannot be understated, formulaic, bland names like "Disa" only adds insult to injury. Given that the original 13 dwarves were taken directly from Norse mythology, why couldn't Amazon do the same and give something like Skadi?

This is one of my DnD character names and I would be absolutely HONORED as a heathen to have seen that I would have been absolutely beyond words happy with a proper norse treatment of dwarven names. If they felt Skadi was too 'well that's a goddess' Go with lesser known male dwarf names like Nabbi - which would again ALSO hit in there with the whole men and women are the same for this particular group. (And lets face it when I hear Nabbi it comes across more to me as an androgynous name than masculin or feminine but I don't know norse at all)

Also @Romeran I went to try to post this and read the post that stopped it went yes fantastic didn't pull up the next hit to post again and saw your second post and could not help but smile at this.

[Winddancer]

Ok so she fought, but all of those fights were any mentioned in the appendices? I know I know, it doesnt have to, to portray her as a fighter. I dont know, I would just have preferred to see a strong character that was strong in other ways than fighting. Lagertha has been done and done well, but was hoping for more of a Cersei type (without all the bad stuff obviously) that was strong, powerful and enigmatic, without having to be the Marvel action hero.

[Romeran]

Ok so she fought, but all of those fights were any mentioned in the appendices?

I don't think the appendices cover much in the first age at all and those quotes all refer to the first kinslaying.

There's this line:

"They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed." (RotK, Appendix B The Tale of Years).

I'm not sure if this is meant to be more like with her/Nenya's power or literally by force of arms.

[Fuin Elda]

I believe those are all UT and Mordors Ring - So not Appendices but they do give a ground work for her fighting. I do think another Cersei type would be nice as well - though perhaps that's what she can cool into by the end of the series which might also be a fantastic way of building character and having that growth from hotheaded action hero to the end of the Third Age Galadriel we know so well from LOTR. It would also lend more to the powerful and enigmatic - Yes she could literally kick your ass but she doesn't need to in order to own you utterly anymore. I think that would be a fantastic thing to see even if we might only really get hints of it towards the end of the series.

[Winddancer]

@Fuin Elda you make a good point, that would actually be pretty cool. I could definitely live with that :)
@Romeran omg now I am worried how they will do the Rings powers..

[Elenhir]

As to Dwarven names, even anything from the list of dwarves. Tolkien drew Gandalf from there, so it's not as if he cared too much about coloring within the lines. And they're not even real Dwarf names; they're the names they tell outsiders. So why should those names be clearly gendered, when looking at roving Dwarves wouldn't clue you in?

@Winddancer: Celebrimbor, with his dying breath, forges two more to add to the Three. They are Earth and Heart.

[The Good Hunter]

@Elenhir clearly Legolas has one and that's why he was able to run up the falling tower

[Fuin Elda]

As to Dwarven names, even anything from the list of dwarves. Tolkien drew Gandalf from there, so it's not as if he cared too much about coloring within the lines. And they're not even real Dwarf names; they're the names they tell outsiders. So why should those names be clearly gendered, when looking at roving Dwarves wouldn't clue you in?

@Winddancer: Celebrimbor, with his dying breath, forges two more to add to the Three. They are Earth and Heart.

@Winddancer I'd like to report a crime....

[Winddancer]

[Boromir88]

Darn, I'm always late to the party.

@Romeran omg now I am worried how they will do the Rings powers..

You know it wouldn't surprise me if the series did some funky Avatar: Last Airbender power with the Rings. Galadriel, being lost at sea, she discovers or hones her water-bending powers to receive Nenya, "the Ring of Water." Elrond had Vilya "the Ring of Air," clearly comes in use if he's a politician and all the hot-air he would have to spew. Cirdan has Narya, the Ring of Fire...after the first ship-burning perpetrated by Feanor and his followers, Cirdan figured out a good scheme to scam ship insurance agencies.

At some point, I seem to vaguely recall that Gil-galad has the Ring of Fire too, so when he's engulfed in flames by Sauron, it must have been fire-bending gone wrong.

[Winddancer]

[Fuin Elda]

So I know that some of the responses to the teaser have been... less than acceptable however I noticed that a lot of fans were very emotional about returning to Middle-earth in terms of the teaser. I know I most certainly was. This is a combo of the actual teaser and fan reactions that I found on TORN. I personally can admit I was among those that got weepy at returning to Middle-earth.

Fan Reactions to the Trailer

I am curious what your initial reaction was when you saw the trailer? Were there tears? Excitement? Trepidation? I know I chose to watch the 5 hour Frame by Frame analysis and live stream that they put on instead of the Superbowl lol and I honestly hope that it gets posted soonish so we can discuss their theories and the bits that they pointed out as well.

[Aikári Salmarinian]

My thoughtful reaction? Sceptical. But I am at an age changing of thoughts. Where movies used to come in, this is more turning to books and paper. I feel all the descriptive stories from the Unfinished Tales are good to read to have an oversight what happened. Movies are all fanfiction, just as our works are here. I got enough baggage to let the rest of history live in my head, and don't need more movie material for that.

How people react on the coming of these movies, is personal. I have no opinion about that. The trailer invoked no emotional reaction with me.

[Silky Gooseness]

Some more images have been shared: here for example https://www.ign.com/articles/the-lord-o ... ce=twitter are some of the Orcs. What do people think?

I for one am quite relieved at the return to prosthetics and make up as opposed to the sheer CGI of The Hobbit, which made them look pretty cartoonish. Also, one of them is a female Orc, which possibly puts to bed the ol’ “orcs are magically pulled out of the ground” chestnut???

[Eldy Dunami]

I have a relatively recent interest in Orcs in general, and a much older peevishness about misconceptions over Orcish reproduction. (My first exposure to Middle-earth was in video game form, and one of the reasons I read the books was my dissatisfaction with the answer I got from a friend when I asked what Orcs are—"men made from mud." ) So I'm excited to see how ROP handles female Orcs! The interviewees' description of Orcs in the early* Second Age recall some of Tolkien's own discussion of the subject, albeit in texts Amazon doesn't have the rights to, which hopefully indicates the people working on the show are indeed as knowledgable about the source material as rumor makes them out to be.


* The fact that the show is apparently set in the early Second Age (based on various comments), yet has Isildur as a main character, is a subject for another, much longer post.

[Elenhir]

Also, one of them is a female Orc, which possibly puts to bed the ol’ “orcs are magically pulled out of the ground” chestnut???

As a mariner of these terrible seas, Sil, I am afraid to report it only ideologizes it.

[Silky Gooseness]

As a mariner of these terrible seas, Sil, I am afraid to report it only ideologizes it.

Some vivid imagery… dare I ask you to expand?!

[Silky Gooseness]

And some more new scenes!

https://www.instagram.com/p/CfUJHCRN5DA ... _copy_link

The scenery looks pretty good. Visually so far I haven’t really been disappointed, (except maybe the inexplicably dragged-through-a-hedge Hobbits) but of course, it’s all about the plot…

[Eldy Dunami]

While the visuals in the new ad all come from the Super Bowl trailer, the use of the quote "nothing was evil in the beginning"—said by Elrond about Sauron in the book—grabs my attention. Beginning the ad with "Meteor Man" could be considered evidence for the theory that he is Sauron, but it could just as easily be a red herring. There's also a glimpse of Rómenna, part of a separate culture that starts good and ends up evil, though on the other hand we also get a glimpse of the Silvan Elf Arondir, and we've had no indication thus far that he'll be a villain (unless there's been something in the leaks).

[Elenhir]

You'd probably have to delete the comment if I fully did, Sil. It was mostly being trotted out by people who really didn't like the detail you noticed and were having tantrums about it.

What with all the Elves in the ad, I'm reluctant to think any individual featured in it was supposed to be the subject of the quote. More telling, I think, is how the quote is split in two, and the transition to 'in the beginning' is right when we cut to a glimpse of Numenor. I'm also still angling for Meteor Man to be Tilion, though, so I might be a bit biased in my perception.

[Silky Gooseness]

Er… yikes, is all I have to say about that…

Anyway: a new article to share!

https://nerdist.com/article/lord-of-the ... ve-images/

It feels like they’re going for a dark and tragic tone. I’d dispute that the Elves could just go back whenever they wanted, though, as many of them, Galadriel included, would be under the Ban.

[Eldy Dunami]

Some interesting insights into the show's version of Gil-galad there, though some of the editorial comments from the Nerdist writer are at odds with what other evidence of changes the show is making. Book!Elrond was indeed thousands of years old during the lifetimes of Elendil and Isildur (two of ROP's main characters), but the show will possibly be set merely a few centuries after the end of the First Age. Which, yes, still feels preposterous to say, but would make show!Elrond's apparent "adolescent qualities" marginally more palatable (emphasis on marginally). Nonetheless, I am curious to see what they make of this, even if there's a good chance I'll consider it a huge mess.

[Eldy Dunami]

There are two recently leaked ROP teaser trailers, one of which has now been officially uploaded to YouTube in better-than-potato-cam quality. Look for Cynthia Addai Robinson as Tar-Míriel at 0:35, and an Ent at 0:40.

[link removed]

[Silky Gooseness]

@Eldy Dunami As it’s a leak, it may be subject to a DCMA takedown on both the original link and a person sharing it, so just for your protection I will remove the link. However, it’s quite easy (currently) to find on the wide internet so happy to continue discussion about it at the moment.

[Eldy Dunami]

@Silky Gooseness, as per my previous post, that link was to a video uploaded by Prime Video's official, verified YouTube account. It was the first of the two recently-leaked teaser trailers, which first appeared online several days ago, but had just been officially uploaded about 14 hours before my post.

[Silky Gooseness]

@Eldy Dunami My apologies! Phew, that’s a relief. Feel free to re-post or edit

[Eldy Dunami]

Thanks!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwjoV_2JcZ0

[Silky Gooseness]

https://ew.com/tv/lord-of-the-rings-the ... irst-look/

The setting and characters are set in Akallabeth time but I had thought they were restricted from that due to it being part of the Silmarillion? No mention of Ar-Pharazôn though we have Tar-Míriel - interesting.

[Moriel]

Ar-Phrarazôn's totally there! He's seated center in the first image and also has his own pic/bit further down the article.

[Silky Gooseness]

Ar-Phrarazôn's totally there! He's seated center in the first image and also has his own pic/bit further down the article.

I was absolutely sure this wasn’t true and then realised first time I read this article it didn’t load totally! Hahahaha I thought it ended sort of abruptly!

Pharazôn is just a counsellor this time though, and not the king?? Looks like they’ve phased out the storyline of Míriel being oppressed and overlooked by her husband and are letting her take the lead but he’s responsible for the bad decisions? Hmmm - that is interesting, as I got the impression part of Numenór’s fall involved increasingly irrational patriarchy

[Silky Gooseness]

Bear McCreary has been confirmed as the composer! I personally really rate him, so very hopeful for this. Two tracks out on Amazon Music already (“Galadriel” and “Sauron”) which I’ll try to listen to later - apparently “Sauron” sounds like you’re fighting a boss in Skyrim, hahaha.

[The Good Hunter]

I'm excited about the addition of Bear McCreary on the music. No one dares criticize anyone named Bear, and he's a massive talent. I know wonder how certain people that are griping and moaning about anything related to the series will take this news.

[Fuin Elda]

Bear McCreary makes me happy honestly I really love the idea of him being a composer for this really makes me happy. Honestly I don't think I've ever heard something he's worked on that I didn't fully enjoy.

[Silky Gooseness]

New trailer!! (SDCC)

Is that Annatar I spy??
What’s with the magical sword? Is this a baby Witch-king?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYnQDsaxHZU

[The Good Hunter]

Buzz cut Sauron is gonna take a minute to wrap my head, but other than that I think I can say I'm looking forward to the show now

[Moriel]

That is not the look I was expecting for Annatar but... I kinda like it??? I require more context *stares at September*

[The Good Hunter]

It reminds me just a bit of Lucifer from the Passion of the Christ film a ways back

[Silky Gooseness]

There have been a lot of jokes about Sauron being the real Slim Shady

[Legolas]

Omg the trailers look so bad.. I've seen many comments by people saying.. "RIP to the works of Tolkien" .. But really, they do look like a bad Game of Thrones spin off