Lettuce talk about the Upcoming Amazon LOTR TV series

[bilbobaggins764]

Amazon is the perfect company to destroy Tolkien's work. Having said that I will watch the first episode while I scream at the television until I refuse to watch anymore. I will then pick it up the next week in defiance of my oath to never watch it again where my actions will predictably repeat. I assume it will take anywhere from 3-5 shows for me to actually keep my word, realize my hope of an accurate portrayal could never happen with Amazon at the helm, and finally discard the show.

I'll fully admit it took me only one watching of each hobbit movies in theatre (and the last movie someone else had to take me and pay for it because I wasn't spending my money on it) and I've not watched them since nor do I own them. So I may be joining you in that though I'll probably manage to watch the series once all the way through before never againing it to the void

I watched the first two hobbits in the theater not the third. I also never bought them on dvd but i have seen them since my son bought the set.

[Androthelm]

I do think I'm generally more pro-adaption than most people, if only because ... I don't think it matters that much, in the end? a bad movie (or a TV show, in this case) doesn't impair the original work -- the campy / bad TV show version of The Witcher from the early 2000s doesn't impact the success of the books, games, and new TV show. It's just another bad show, in the end -- and doesn't really impact the Legendarium.

[Ankala Teaweed]

There is no way amazon is going to do it justice, ever. If you had a problem with Peter Jackson, you have to admit that at least he was a huge Tolkien fan, and he gave the films the budgets and casting due Tolkien's Middle-earth. The films were beautiful and panoramic and respectful, even if he added or condensed some things for motivation.

I have a problem with amazon in general; this is all about amazon's profits. I won't watch their Wheel of Time adaptation either. Not a chance.

Color me highly dubious.

[Androthelm]

Right @Ankala Teaweed! I agree -- the problem is Amazon, and not adaptions as a concept.

[Elenhir]

If you had a problem with Peter Jackson, you have to admit that at least he was a huge Tolkien fan, and he gave the films the budgets and casting due Tolkien's Middle-earth.

But that's silly. Bezos is a huge Tolkien fan. The budget to this project is astronomical. And frankly, Jackson did not give the casting due Tolkien's Middle-earth; that's always been nostalgia talking, mixed with a healthy dose of conflating Jackson's choices and how they work well towards his intended presentation with the suitability of that presentation to the source material. Nothing we've seen from Amazon on the casting front is any worse than choices Jackson made.

Really, though, if that is why I, as someone who has a significant problem with Peter Jackson, should excuse Jackson enough to not be highly dubious of him, you should be doing the same with Amazon. Either this is hypocrisy, or there's something else unspoken here that's carrying all the weight.

[Fuin Elda]

I have a problem with amazon in general; this is all about amazon's profits. I won't watch their Wheel of Time adaptation either. Not a chance.

Color me highly dubious.

Here's the thing... I ALREADY have Amazon Prime he will be making NO extra money from me it's a $100 per year renewal has been for like the last... 6 ish? years. whatever.

The only money Bezo MIGHT get is from people that don't already have Amazon Prime which are the few die hard I will give Bezo's nothing but really want to see the new LOTR series. And do you know what will happen if they don't continually have a new season every year? People will cancel their prime for their in betweens. OR if they are really smart they'll wait till the end of the season and use their prime freebie, cancel and know if it's worth shelling out for prime when the next season comes out. (Or if they are releasing all at once they'll just bing during the free month and cancel. And again Bezo will have made nothing from that.)

That and Amazon has paid A LOT for these rights. Honestly given the fact I know they won't be getting additional money from any prime members that already exist I have to wonder how they are actually going to make money I don't think the hold outs will be enough because I have prime for the shipping. Video prime is a small bonus (that has BSG which makes me happy) but I don't pay for prime for the videos.

[Boromir88]

I go back and forth on the Amazon series all the time.

There are a lot of reasons I think Peter Jackson's LOTR was successful, and his Hobbit much less so. I think a big reason is LOTR was a large enough story for Jackson. The EE commentaries are full of Jackson & co. explaining why they cut out scenes from the books. The vast majority of the time is "we have to tell the story of Frodo and the Ring, anything that diverts that from moving forward has to have a good reason to be included." And when you follow that general outline of the story it worked. There was plenty of material for 3 movies to remove entirely or tweak.

The Hobbit they had to throw everything plus the kitchen sink in to bloat it into 3 movies. And instead of truly focusing on Bilbo, there to me seemed like no direction of what story Jackson wanted to portray. That's when we get the "oh it's all stuff in the appendices" which annoys me the most. Because the appendices read more like a summary of events, which means far more creative liberty. When Jackson is forced to invent things is when he's his weakest (imo), because the vast majority of the time his inventions are useless and boring.

And that is why I go back and forth on the Amazon series, because it's going to be based on material where a lot of creative liberty will have to be taken. I'm interested in seeing a different look and take on Middle-earth, and they've certainly dumped a lot of money into the series. But I think I'm going to do the same thing I did for Game of Thrones. I didn't pick up watching it until the 2nd season, because friends whose opinions I respect said they enjoyed it. Most of those friends are like me, big Tolkien fans, so if they say the series is good I'll pick up watching it soon. If not, it will probably be cancelled and I'll watch it sometime in the distant future, if it' still available.

[Ankala Teaweed]

Bezos is not a scriptwriter, a director or a producer. his alleged fandom is irrelevant to the decisions of the budget office and the CEOs.

[Elenhir]

And Jackson's fandom was irrelevant to the decisions of the studio executives he worked with for the LotR films, and their budget offices. Did he have executive control? Was he the one who made the ultimate decisions and funded the rights consolidations? You said that Jackson gave the films the budgets due them, but Bezos is far more responsible for giving the Amazon LotR show their budgets than Jackson was for the trilogy, in the sense that it the funding comes from an organization he actually has a good deal of sway over.

You're trying to reimagine the history of Jackson's films as some sort of grassroots project. But if you make it into that mythology, you can't compare it to anything that remains grounded in reality. It was another pitch, like so many before and since. It was another corporate endeavor. It, too, was about profits. It would never have been made without that profit motive. Seems to me, if you're counting blessings about people involved being fans, the more casually those fans can push against the traditional corporate processes you think lead to failure, the happier you should be.

Now, I'm not saying you should be happy. I'm only saying with what you're saying should make other people praise Jackson, you should be praising Bezos.

And, 'alleged'? Really? Apparently you find Bezos' fandom relevant enough here that you're gatekeeping it.

[Fuin Elda]

Honestly I'm with Elenhir @Ankala Teaweed Bezos is the cheque writer here at best. Not the script writer not the director. And he gave LOTR a worthy budget he is top dog at this company and his company is spending just under 5 times what New Line spent on ALL 3 movies for 1 season. Will this mean he might have some say in what get included excluded? Yes. It's part of the job even PJ had to deal with Newline execs wanting things.


Peter Jackson was looking for the funds to make 2 films for the LOTR... It was some nameless executive (to me anyways)that gave the trilogy the funding for 3 films if I remember the extras right where JP admits this it's been a while since I watched all the extras on the EEs it might even be on the theatrical.... If I'm remembering right you should be praising newline for the chance they took not PJ

[Boromir88]

@Fuin Elda, indeed you remember correctly. Peter Jackson went to New Line with the plan for 2 movies, and one of the executives that heard the pitch said it should be 3.

[Ankala Teaweed]

you are all perfectly entitled to your opinions about it, your excitement; I, however, boycott amazon as much as possible, especially in support of ongoing workers struggles in those killing warehouses.

LotR is my favorite book of all time hands-down, but I don't feel the need to watch a new adaptation.
As I said, I am not paying up prime to watch the prime Wheel of Time adaptation (though I am in book 7 rereading the series), nor the final seasons of The Expanse, after it moved from SYFY (and that is a most excellent scifi book series with a great cast, that they did keep after the network handover) and I look forward to that final book.

[Elenhir]

And it's possible to take that stance without making Jackson into a false idol and demanding that other people worship him for all the good things (you claim) he has done. You can do that without making judgments about who gets to count as a fan and how everyone else who is a fan has to view them. But you went with hypocrisy, gatekeeping, misinformation, and exhuming old movie wars nonsense to lash your stance to.

You keep framing this aggressively, as if people are forcing you to do things. No one is demanding you watch the new adaptation. No one is forcing you to pay for prime. You're the one who came in here and told people what their opinions should be. And you had to be coaxed into revealing your actual motives, because you wanted to hide them behind empty appeals to concerns about quality.

[Ankala Teaweed]

What a complete misreading of everything I said.

I wish halfir were here right now. Sigh

Everyone is free to state their opinions here. I never told anyone what to think. I state my own opinions; and I am allowed to hold
bezos in ill regard.

ahhh you will worship Fangorn, I proclaim.

[Elenhir]

and I am allowed to hold
bezos in ill regard.

For someone who keeps acting like they're being disallowed from having opinions, it took quite a bit of effort to get you to state them. It's noticeably absent in your initial reasoning, where you feigned other concerns.

It's also extremely tasteless to use dead people as props. I think you owe halfir an apology.

[Winddancer]

Ok guys, lets take a breather, shall we? And lets not bring halfir into it, may he rest in peace. You have both made your points now, so let's let it lie please.

[Moriel]

Remember everyone, please use the Report function only if you think one of the Rules or an element of the RP Code of Conduct has been broken

[Ankala Teaweed]

Halfir was a friend of mine.
He did not permit personal attacks in lore, but I guess those days are gone.

Fine, I'll stay heck outta film talk.

Hi Moriel -- been awhile since Mustang Sally's near Penn Station.

Happy New Years!

[The Good Hunter]

In an attempt to move things back onto the train rails: What does everyone think about Howard Shore's involvement with the music of the Amazon series? Do you think there's going to be familiar themes and motifs or do you think he'll be starting from scratch?

[Fuin Elda]

So @Al-Masih ad-Dajjal with Shore being involved in the Amazon series, I feel there are going to be familiar themes, not identical, but similar enough that we are going to get the same feel. The reason I say this is because if you listen to any of his work outside of the LOTR it still has the same sort of feel to it? Most composers generally stick to what they know and where they are comfortable and this man is very comfortable with build ups and swells and light airy bits for balance which is at least to me what made the LOTR (and the Hobbit because I dont mind the music) soundtracks have the feeling they have.

The original suite for the Aviator honestly feel like they could easily be at home in the LOTR aside from the guitar riff in at around the 3 minute mark that lasts around 30 seconds Honestly the guitar riff part of it actually feels like he was TRYING to steer away from LOTR ish far enough that people wouldn't think it was from there it's so out of place to me at least in the rest of the piece.

Aviator Original Suite Here is a link to the composition I'm talking about.

[Elenhir]

Halfir was a friend of mine.
He did not permit personal attacks in lore, but I guess those days are gone.

Halfir was always very kind to those who turned an ear to what he said. It's a favor I think should be returned to him. He was very insistent on not feeding people straw.

[Boromir88]

@Al-Masih ad-Dajjal, I would like to see a different take and style from Peter Jackson's, but I don't mind Howard Shore composing the music for the series. The music was one of the few things that I consistently liked throughout both trilogies. I didn't care for Tauriel's theme, but the dwarves singing "Far over Misty Mountains Cold" and the theme was fantastic.

[The Good Hunter]

Looks like we finally (finally) have a title for the Amazon series: The Rings of Power.

Not sure how I feel about the title. It's clear and tells fans exactly what and how the series will move, but also the name feels very unoriginal and vanilla.

Thoughts?

[Eldy Dunami]

We also have a teaser trailer, though it doesn't include any footage of the actual series, just abstract shots leading up to a logo reveal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhqGCPMfkNM

The Rings of Power seems an odd choice of subtitle for a show that, based on what we've heard, is probably going to be a loose adaptation of the Akallabêth. Perhaps Amazon has run a successful disinformation campaign and it will actually be set earlier in the Second Age, or maybe they're just going all in on the Rings for their initial marketing since they're more familiar to the average potential viewer than Númenor. Who knows? But it's nice to finally have a title more than four years after the series was announced.

EDIT: More information from the showrunners, via The Hollywood Reporter:

“This is a title that we imagine could live on the spine of a book next to J.R.R. Tolkien’s other classics. The Rings of Power unites all the major stories of Middle-earth’s Second Age: the forging of the rings, the rise of the Dark Lord Sauron, the epic tale of Númenor, and the Last Alliance of Elves and Men,” said showrunners J.D. Payne & Patrick McKay. “Until now, audiences have only seen on-screen the story of the One Ring — but before there was one, there were many… and we’re excited to share the epic story of them all.”

[Elenhir]

Best case, Eldy's suggestion of a disinformation campaign, and it spans a greater period than previously most recent information implied. Personally, I know that Amazon has been quite focused on the guy who's been getting most of the leaks, and given some of secret glimpse into that cat-and-mouse game, it wouldn't be the most surprising thing in the world. Doubtful, but not beyond the pale.

Barring that, next best case is it's a crummy name, and that they thought *Akallabeth* or *Fall of Numenor* or even *Numenor* were either too conlanging or too full of spoilers (it gives up the ghost more than *Return of the King*, you know).

After that, and this is where my hope meets plausibility, I think, is that we're going to get the late Second Age stuff but with a lot of the corrupting aspect of the Rings worked into it. Not ideal, since the Rings did go out centuries before, and personally I am not looking forward to seeing the Numenorean Nazgul be corrupted while standing on the very earth of Numenor itself and have that entrench itself in the unthinking headcanon, but it can work thematically (sacrificing, unfortunately, a bit of the blame of Numenor on its own descent) and it's likely what we're going to get. And it's better than the worst option.

Which is timeline gobbledygook.

[Winddancer]

They are totally going with the Rings, as the first ones were that successful. Probably hoping to ride on it's coat tails and get people to watch it. Seeing as I haven't read anything outside of LOTR and Hoppit, well as long as it is well made I am happy :P If they use shi* actors like in Wheel of Time, I will be pissed!

[Boromir88]

There was previously a vague summary released with something like "kingdoms will rise to glory and fall to ruin," so it sounded like they would be showing more than just Numenor. Budgets been green lighted for at least 2 seasons, if my memory is correct.

https://www.bustle.com/entertainment/lo ... lease-date

I don't think there's anything additional to the plot in this article that @Eldy Dunami's link doesn't have. But there is quite a bit of information on the actors and characters. Speculation that some of the names are disinformation to keep a lid on spoilers. Also. to @Elenhir's point, the series main villain, Oren:

Another GoT alum, Joseph Mawle, was cast as Oren, the show’s central villain. It’s unclear how he’s connected to Sauron, who seems to reign as the bigger Middle-earth threat, but he’s likely Sauron’s agent. An Observer report revealed more about these main characters’ traits. Oren is said to “evoke a deep sense of pathos built around a wounded and fallen nobility”

Bolding my emphasis, but sounds like a fallen Numenorean turned Nazgul.

[Eldy Dunami]

For what it's worth, the names Amazon has used in public thus far are almost certainly code names, which is typical for major productions like this, so it's possible Mawle is playing Sauron/Annatar himself. (It's also possible this has been unofficially confirmed or disproven by people who are actually following the production, unlike me.) I would be interested in a depiction of Sauron that incorporates "wounded and fallen nobility"; it'd be nice if the show explores his backstory and original fall a bit, since this is the first time Sauron will be in an actual character in a major Middle-earth screen adaptation.

[Romeran]

I would like to see a different take and style from Peter Jackson's, but I don't mind Howard Shore composing the music for the series. The music was one of the few things that I consistently liked throughout both trilogies

I still listen to the soundtracks fairly consistently to this day!

I'm looking forward to seeing what someone other than PJ takes on it -- nothing against PJ, I still enjoy the original LotR movies even if I don't love all of it.

What I'm most curious about is how they're going to try and tell a unified story. Who's the main character? Will there even be one or is it going to span an entire age? While there are many individual stories in the second age for the most part none of them are individually long enough to make up an entire two season epic so they're either going to have to string together many stories with a constant theme (Sauron?) or make up a bunch of stuff?

Sorry if this has been hashed over already.

[Winddancer]

Oooo Sauron being there through it all, me likey.. <3

[Romeran]

There's certainly enough material for Sauron to be a common theme and the show seems clearly about forging rings of power. Could start with his hiding in the early second age and corrupting the men that stay behind, move to him in Numenor and the fall of Numenor and the forging of the rings etc. In this case the main character -- the one that exists through the entire history of the story -- is actually the villian. I think it also plays nicely with leading into TH and LotR. Kind of like the SW prequels did with Anikan -> Darth Vader. I desperately wanted to find out which team at Amazon was working on this and try to join their team but I don't think they have any roles for statisticians...

[Winddancer]

Do we know who any of the actors are?? Better be a damn good one for Sauron..

[Romeran]

I don't think we know who any of the actors are. I think we know some people from the production team and a few of the directors (sounds like different directors for different episodes so not one single director): "J.A. Bayona (Jurassic World: Fallen Kingdom), Wayne Che Yip (The Wheel of Time), and Charlotte Brändström (The Witcher) helm multiple episodes each" from https://www.bustle.com/entertainment/lo ... lease-date

[Cethina]

I'm very excited about the upcoming series, I'm sure it's been mentioned but the budget for each season is through the roof! I'm hoping the production quality is top notch. I know some folks who dislike LotR because they didn't think the movies were good, but I'm hoping that the series is good enough to bring more people around to the fandom and that it will gain more interest. I have friends who Loved GOT so I think that since it's the same genre that we will pick up some more followers/lovers of LotR! I'm just hoping more people will become interested once it's released! Sooo excited!!

[Romeran]

I think the most production quality will be excellent. What has me the most concerned is whether the story will be compelling. Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit have incredibly compelling stories with exciting characters. Similar for GoT (conclusion to that series aside). It’ll hinge on whether or not the story is compelling enough to follow for several seasons for non LotR fans. Obviously I’m going to watch regardless.

[Winddancer]

100% confident that the production will be insane, as for the plot? Not so much. And as for the actors? Even less. This was posted a few days ago and it is already making me worry :( https://www.hellomagazine.com/film/2022 ... t-tv-show/

[Romeran]

Interesting! I'm glad at least that they didn't go with a bunch of A-List celebrities, I recognized a few of them but mostly from precisely one other thing. I wonder if the "Baldor" they refer to is the same Baldor as in the grand son of Eorl, son of Brego and consequently if they're going to try to tell the story of him going through the Paths of the Dead? But that would be Third Age. Could be a code name or just coincidence I suppose.

[Boromir88]

Now that it appears the plot will be focused on the Rings of Power, I think Eregion will be a likely important location. This has piqued my interests in the series a bit. As discussed in the fascinating lore thread, the relationship between Celebrimbor and Sauron is an interesting story to delve into.

[Romeran]

the relationship between Celebrimbor and Sauron is an interesting story to delve into.

Yeah I really think making Sauron a character could be quite interesting, there's a lot of potential material there and it would also be giving background to the main villain of the Lord of the Rings. Has a bit of Anikan prequel vibes (hopefully no Jar-Jar Binks characters show up ) in that it would be a history of the main villain of the original series (I doubt they'd go back far enough to Sauron serving Aulë to do the "fall" part).

[Hanasian]

This didn't appear to make into this discussion here (maybe I missed it), but I think it's worthy of a read.

Amazon's Lord of the Rings Reportedly Has Rights to The Silmarillion.

For all the talk about how Amazon is going to totally screw up the legendarium, I find these quotes from the article interesting:

It is said that Tolkien's estate considers The Silmarillion to be the author's greatest work and holds it in special regard. Per Jackson himself, the estate did not love the filmed versions of The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit and showed no interest in licensing Tolkien's remaining Middle-earth stories.

"I don't think the Tolkien estate liked those films," Jackson said during an appearance at San Diego Comic-Con in 2012 (via Tolkien Library). "I don't think The Silmarillion will go anywhere for quite a long time."

And this:

But it seems the estate entrusted Tolkien's remaining works, at least in part, to Amazon to make this new series. It should be no surprise that the report also states that Tolkien's estate is much more directly involved in the Amazon series than in any prior adaptation of the material. According to the report, three experts on Tolkien and Middle-earth lore were on set during the production, and the estate is "very happy with how things are progressing."

It seems to me that saying that Amazon will screw things up just because Bezos is writing the checks, especially if you are of the opinion that Peter Jackson didn't screw things up, is a bit off. As far as the Tolkien Estate goes, it seems they are much more involved with this project than they were with Peter Jackson's project (if there was any at all). I myself after seeing the last little tease have my tip-o-meter hovering around over the 'Cautiously Optimistic' area, whereas it had been leaning more to the 'Somewhat Pessimistic' area much of the year. Being the material they are covering with the 2nd age and that there isn't really a completed book story to use as a basis, I'm willing to give them a little slack. I dont expect them to veer too far away from the legendarium as much as Peter Jackson did with the Lord of the Rings.

[Aikári Salmarinian]

*nods* I think I like the books much more now these days. Free and imaginative!

[Boromir88]

Here is the rumor that someone has been cast to play the invented character, "Carine," Isildur's sister:

https://www.geekfeed.com/isildurs-siste ... tr-series/

[Winddancer]

I guess this is the payoff for not having read the Silmarillion? You have no idea what has changed and what hasn't
I do think we have to give some artistic leeway, it will never be 100% as the books. As long as it isnt something as horrific as what they did to Faramir!

[Boromir88]

I guess this is the payoff for not having read the Silmarillion? You have no idea what has changed and what hasn't
I do think we have to give some artistic leeway, it will never be 100% as the books. As long as it isnt something as horrific as what they did to Faramir!

I’m definitely not expecting much “faithfulness” in terms of actual canon. This period the series is supposed to be covering, there’s just too little in terms of details. I mean it’s not a fleshed out story like Lord of the Rings. There is little to no “canon” characters the creators can pull from, so there will have to be a lot of invented characters.

However, I will also say that Numenorean women are not to be trifled with. 3 Ruling Queens of Numenor and there’s also the story of Aldarion and Erendis in Unfinished Tales. Numenor might be the only place Tolkien fleshed out a full story of the conflict between men and women.

[Romeran]

Aldarion and Erendis, "The Mariner's Wife" is my favorite story in UT.

And yeah as @Boromir88 points out if they're really picking this period of time then there's actually not a ton of connected story for them to tell, meaning they'll have to do a good deal of invention. I hope that as long as they don't directly contradict what has been written and hopefully they can stay with the spirit. It seems like the Tolkien Estate might be somewhat more involved than they were with PJ's Lord of the Rings so I'm quietly optimistic.

[Hanasian]

I guess this is the payoff for not having read the Silmarillion? You have no idea what has changed and what hasn't
I do think we have to give some artistic leeway, it will never be 100% as the books. As long as it isnt something as horrific as what they did to Faramir!

Yes, that is the thing. There is going to be a certain amount of 'fanfic' story added to this series due to the source material is rather limited. How one could totally get Faramir so wrong despite having a fairly full depiction in the Lord of the Rings, and being played awesomely by David Wenhem, I will never know.

[Romeran]

On the old plaza I had an advanced lore post all about Faramir, he was such a noble character in the book and my favorite character. I was so disappointed by the film. I particularly hated him brining Frodo to Osgiliath.

[Hanasian]

Here is the rumor that someone has been cast to play the invented character, "Carine," Isildur's sister:

https://www.geekfeed.com/isildurs-siste ... tr-series/

Yes, I could see things like this being added. Tolkien was rather short on mentioning daughters to family lines, with some 'unnamed' daughters in some of them. Example would be Eldacar, who had two sons who were first born and third born, but the second born daughter is never named. I'm willing to let out more slack tto this project than I was with PJ's project simply due to the material it's being based on, so I'm ok for Isildur and Anárion having a sister.

[Elenhir]

Tolkien was rather short on mentioning daughters to family lines, with some 'unnamed' daughters in some of them

My favorite example is asking if people can name the children of Finwe.

As to the general question of Carine, though, I've seen it suggested, when the first leaks broke about the role, that her position is based off Firiel from 'The Lost Road', a ward of Elendil with brief mention. It is not known if Amazon has the rights to those works, though they would hardly need them for a similar character concept: it's a minimal role in a minimal early version.

[Androthelm]

Aaand looks like Amazon just released some character posters -- what do we think?