LOTR Read-Along, TTT - Book IV: Chapters 9 & 10

[Boromir88]

It's that time and we head on into Book IV already! There's 10 chapters, I was considering using 4 weeks for this one because it is I believe (up to this point) the shortest, under 150 pages. But, I'm still not in any hurry and with holidays fast approaching, I can usually read a lot but try to spend more time with family. So, unless there are strenuous objections, how about discuss 2 chapters a week?

Schedule:
Nov 30 - Dec 6: The Black Gate is Closed, Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbits
Dec 7-13: The Window on the West, The Forbidden Pool
Dec 14-20: Journey to the Crossroads, The Stairs of Cirith Ungol
Dec 21-27: Shelob's Lair, The Choices of Master Samwise
Dec 28- Jan?: TTT Wrap-up

Questions/Topics carrying over from previous threads:

- Gandalf mentions "two powers at work" in the Shadow of the Past, what were they and what influence do they have on the story? (Later on Galadriel speaks of powers as well).
- What role does Providence/Grace continue to play throughout the story?
- Is fate or luck driving events of the Fellowship?
- Are there different primary "adversaries" in each Book?
- Now the Fellowships has fallen apart. What will happen to them in terms of 'goals'? Do they still believe they are part of something big, or are they just making 'logical' choices?
- Keep in mind the changes Saruman made to Rohan and how it compares to the changes he makes in The Shire
-How does Mercy and giving someone a second chance effect the story line; for the good and the bad?

**Note: If you are a reader joining us late or life got busy and fell behind don't worry! Please feel free to comment on any chapters from The Two Towers Book IV in this thread. The threads to previous books discussions are linked below. Continued discussions on any chapter are most welcome

FOTR Book I discussion thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=352
FOTR Book II discussion thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=456
TTT Book III discussion thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=556

[Eamila Bolger]

I'd like to suggest another question/theme for the above list.
Lately we see 'mercy' and 'giving a second chance' come back as a theme a lot. Perhaps we could see if there is a pattern in the rest of the books too? Thinking of Faramir for instance... How does having mercy affect the storyline, whether it's for the good or the bad? It seems to me with Gandalf willing to give Saruman another chance that the only one he will not have mercy on, is Sauron himself. Is Gandalf capable of seeing something good in everyone? Or something useful perhaps? Or does he realize he is not in the position to judge? And how is that for others in the story?

[Chrysophylax Dives]

@Eamila Bolger sorry to give you a host of notifications! The nature of the emergency is a temporal jump and subsequent chapters under the belt since you made your suggestion.

Is there any mercy in the Lady Galadriel's (mind) 'interview' with Boromir?

I don't think so. The author is merciful to Boromir (an honourable death saves him from losing himself to the Ring, which is where he is going). Gandalf, as was noted in another thread, urges Theoden to mercy on Wormtongue (and Treebeard will eventually let them leave, which seems to be showing mercy to Wormtongue and Saruman). Where else does the theme of mercy arise in the Two Towers?

[Eamila Bolger]

We saw it with Éomer en Erkenbrand who had mercy on the men from Dunland etc. who had been fighting against them because Saruman had poisoned their minds. It even sounded like Gandalf was willing to give Saruman a second chance.
We never see it when Orcs or Urukhai are concerned though: not from men to the Uruks/Orcs nor the other way round.

[Boromir88]

@Eamila Bolger I have added your question of Pity and Mercy to the OP. It also shows up in the opening chapter of Book IV

The Taming of Smeagol

Frodo remembers the words of Gandalf back in Bag End and "For now that I see him, I do pity him."

I am interested to follow along with what plays out between Frodo, Sam and Gollum. It's been so long since I've read it and all I really remember is the movies messing some things up by having Gollum drive the wedge to separate Frodo and Sam. I'm curious to try to figure out where PJ made that decision. Sort of like in Helm's Deep, Legolas telling Gimli he wished for 500 Mirkwood archers with him, it flicked on the light switch "ah so that's where PJ got the idea." I'm curious to find out if Gollum tries to put a wedge between Frodo and Sam and makes the effort to split them apart.

There is an immediate difference. Frodo always addresses him as Smeagol, Sam calls him "stinker" or "it." So, to Sam, Gollum isn't even a person anymore, which is rather sad and unfortunate. I think Frodo, as a Ringbearer sees Smeagol and knows full well what the Ring is capable of doing to a Ringbearer. Sam doesn't and likely won't figure it out until he's forced into taking the Ring at the end of TTT.

There is a rather quick and immediate change in Gollum too:

Reluctantly Sam obeyed. At once Gollum got up and began prancing about, like a whipped cur whose master has patted it. From that moment a change, which lasted for some time, came over him. He spoke with less hissing and whining, and he spoke to his companions direct, not to his precious self. He would cring and flinch, if they stepped near him or made any sudden movement, and he avoided the touch of their elven-cloaks; but he was friendly, and indeed pitifully anxious to please. He would cackle with laughter and caper, if any jest was made, or even if Frodo spoke kindly to him, and weep if Frodo rebuked him. Sam said little to him of any sort. He suspected him more deeply than ever, and if possible liked the new Gollum, the Smeagol, less than the old. (The Taming of Smeagol)

Gollum is compared to a "whipped cur" and the comparison to a dog stands out even more in the next chapter. I'm reminded of Bag End again, where Sam is compared to a dog:

'Me sir!' cried Sam, springing up like a dog invited for a walk. (The Shadow of the Past)

I wonder what's going on here. In the beginning of the story Gandalf - Frodo - Sam (compared to a dog). But now in The Taming of Smeagol, Frodo steps into Gandalf's role (remembering Gandalf's words to 'pity' Gollum), Sam steps into Frodo's role pre-leaving the Shire (doesn't like Gollum and likes the new Gollum even less), Gollum becomes Sam as Sam was before leaving the Shire (the dog).

[Boromir88]

The Passage of the Marshes

I had a few "I didn't realize that" moments reading this chapter. The main one that was cool realizing is Gollum's knowledge of history. Maybe I had forgotten, but he provides quite a bit of background information that I just wasn't expecting. His geographical knowledge was always key in getting Frodo out of his dilemma of just wandering near Mordor until their food ran out. But he also provides historical information about the Dead Marshes and even more in the next chapter that I never expected.

And the other thing is more of a question. Previously I thought PJ overplayed the Gollum/Smeagol thing, which added confusion. I didn't like the portrayal of Gollum/Smeagol being a split-personality, but I can see where PJ came up with that choice for the films. At least, in Tolkien's reporting through Sam's viewpoint, he seems to hear 2 distinct and different voices. Then Sam goes on to think about the Gollum-half and Smeagol-half which he names "Slinker and Stinker." Tolkien uses his characters having 2-opposing halves fairly often, in The Hobbit there's Bilbo's "Baggins side" and "Took side" which were frequently at odds with eachother. Then one side would apparently "win out" over the other. There is less emphasis with Frodo's two-sides, but I think there's more emphasis on Gollum's two sides. So, did the Ring exaggerate and actually cause a "split-personality" to develop in Gollum? Or is "Gollum" just the physical embodiment of the Ring's influence? I don't know if that's the best way to describe it, so I'll try to rephrase...that is the "Gollum" had existed before the Ring and the Ring feeds into and strengthens the Gollum-side, so that Gollum wins out over the Smeagol? In a similar way to Bilbo, sometimes his "Took side" won, but sometimes his "Baggins side" won.

[Androthelm]

@Boromir88 to answer, somewhat late, your question about dogs, I almost wonder if there's a bit of a class element. Sam and Gollum are, in addition to the two described as doglike, the two who directly serve Frodo -- and the two who call him "Master." Sam, on the one hand, is loyal -- his doggishness is a good trait -- whereas Gollum is old and worn out, not necessarily bad by nature but alltogether too likely to bite.

[Boromir88]

I've updated the schedule that I'm going to at least attempt to follow. Holidays are busy times for everyone, so at least for my pace I'm keeping at reading and discussing 2 chapters a week. Which will put us finished with TTT before the New Year and we can keep that last week of December starting into January as a wrap up/catch up week before going on to Return of the King. Wow I feel like 2020 wasn't ever going to end and here we are less than a month away!

@Androthelm, yes I agree. I remember several years ago a Tolkien scholar writing that Sam's comparisons to a dog as a negative thing. I wondered if the person who wrote it was actually a cat-person because they were quite negative towards dogs in general. I think though, Tolkien gives the positive traits to Sam and the negative traits to Gollum.

[Androthelm]

A negative thing in the characterization of Sam, @Boromir88? Or a negative question in terms of reflecting Tolkien's slightly questionable characterizations of class, throughout the books? I know the latter has ...... aged slightly poorly.

[Boromir88]

@Androthelm, it was someone taking typically good traits associated with dogs and putting a negative spin on it. For example, loyalty is probably the most commonly associated with dogs, and the author was trying to make Sam's dog-like loyalty into a negative thing. I'll try to track it down. It was in a thread from the old Plaza, so we'll see how it goes.

[Lail]

Sorry I got quite behind! I'm almost all caught up now.

I also thought Gollum's two personality thing was exaggerated for the movie but now I see maybe that is not the case!

Oh the thing about the dog and Gandalf and Sam is very interesting! Gollum is not quite as loyal a dog as Sam, though, or at least not in the same good-natured way...

My thoughts kept brief since I'm behind --
Ch. 1. The Taming of Smeagol
I noticed the wind mentioned a lot this chapter, particularly the east wind. It seems very fitting thematically.

I loved that Sam volunteered to go down the cliff first. An act of bravery or selflessness or both? He was also the first to approach Gollum!

The moment Sam reflects on the beauty of the stars and the moon was beautiful and if I recall correctly, it won’t be the last time we see the stars lifting his spirits.

Ch 2. Passage of the Marshes
Gollum seemed to love splashing about in the stream. I wondered if this was a connection to his river-folk-esque old life? Or am I even remembering Smeagol's pre-Ring life correctly from the books, not the movies?

The change in Gollum that happens in the previous chapter does not last long - right after the Nazgul on wings show up, he seems to revert right back to his old behavior. I wonder if this is due to fear of Mordor or the lure of the Ring or both.

The marshes are a very creepy setting. It always makes me think that there must have been an influence from WWI on this setting.

It broke my heart when Frodo told Sam he didn’t think they would need food and that they would likely not even make it to Mt Doom and Sam wept and then sort of got on with things.

Ch 3. The Black Gate
There is a mention of secret passwords to open the Black Gate. I couldn’t help but imagine someone walking up to the gate and saying “mellon” to try to get in. Or maybe whatever the Black Speech equivalent would be? Seriously, though, I thought this was interesting and I wonder what the “password” is if there actually is one.

This seems to be the first time Frodo makes a real serious threat/warning to Gollum about the Ring but it also seems to convey his understanding of what the Ring is capable of doing to a Bearer.

Now that they are at the gate, Frodo has another choice to make. It reminded me of his choice about going over or under Moria and how he tried to delay his decision-making back then too just as he does now - does he try the gate or does he try Gollum’s “secret” path? Seems worth weighing one this important and he is without guidance from anyone.

Thinking back on Frodo’s decision making, he does seem to like delaying things a bit - he sort of procrastinated about leaving the Shire and he knew he had to leave the Fellowship but delayed that until he felt he had no other choice. The one decisive thing he seemed set on was volunteering to take the Ring to Mordor back at the Council of Elrond. (And we discussed in that thread I think, that Gandalf may have had an influence on that).

[Boromir88]

The Black Gate is Closed

Gollum surprises me again with more history knowledge about Minas Ithil/Morgul. He even knows about the "seeing stone" that was once there:

"They built very tall towers, and one they raised was silver-white, and in it there was a stone like the Moon, and round it were great white walls."

Gollum knows so much in fact, and appears to know so much about Sauron's mind, it makes Sam suspicious. It is a surprising amount of info Gollum knows, and it makes me wonder how he seems to know so much? He's of course unnaturally old because of the Ring, but most of that life was spent in the Misty Mountains, hiding from the world and staying underground. Maybe it's a product of being a Ring-bearer? Frodo seems to perceive others minds more clearly than most and Galadriel says it's because he's a Ring-bearer. The same should be said of Gollum and Sam just can't understand it yet because he is not yet a Ring-bearer.

@Lailyn: This seems to be the first time Frodo makes a real serious threat/warning to Gollum about the Ring but it also seems to convey his understanding of what the Ring is capable of doing to a Bearer.

I liked that part with Frodo's warning because I'm getting a completely different read on his character now. I always knew the movie did a poor job of Frodo's character, the amount of times he falls down makes him look weak and pathetic, but it's worse than I remembered. I think the movies make Frodo's pity to spare Gollum look like it's a weak and stupid decision. That "Pity" is foolish and Frodo is easily manipulated by Gollum to turn against Sam and stupidly walk right into Shelob's lair. This moment of Frodo's threat to Gollum shows that portrayal is wrong.

Yes, Frodo is probably the one character who shows pity to spare Gollum, when no one else would have. But that doesn't make him blind and foolish enough that he's suddenly easily manipulated into thinking Gollum is healed and trustworthy. This shows the complete opposite, Frodo knows he's still got a lot of wickedness in him, and he may see that Gollum is improving, but Frodo's not blind to the malice that's still in him.

[Boromir88]

Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit

What I found fascinating read this chapter is the mood feels kind of...homely. Sam brings a piece of the Shire to Mordor and after the fears of trudging through the Dead Marshes, coming to face the insurmountable Black Gate, Sam is talking about cooking, herbs, potatoes and oliphaunts! They're in lands tortured and desolate under the power of Mordor and Sam keeps us grounded in feelings of home and the Shire.

But then Sam gets his first sight of war of Men against Men:

It was Sam's first view of a battle of Men against Men; and he did not like it much. He was glad that he could not see the dead face. He wondered what the man's name was and where he came from, and if he was really evil of heart, or what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would not really rather have stayed there in peace - all in a flash of thought which was quickly driven from his mind.

I love this quote as it's always stood at as thought-provoking commentary on the real "War." Tolkien stated he did not believe in writing allegory, but this is one of the times I think his experiences in World War I come out in his writing. Sam's first view of "a battle of Men against Men." It's also interesting that Sam's seen battle and witnessed orcs being killed, but his view of Men against Men is much different and more jarring. Poor orcs, no respect or Pity ever shown to them.

[Boromir88]

The Window on the West

Well, I think I discovered in this chapter my younger opinion of Grima as an outcast in Rohan's culture was correct. Faramir talks about how Gondor is becoming similar to the Rohirrim in their value on military prowess, and less like the "arts of Numenor".

"For as the Rohirrim do, we now love war and valour as things good in themselves, both a sport and an end; and though we still hold that a warrior should have more skills and knowledge than only the craft of weapons and slaying, we esteem a warrior, nonetheless, above men of other crafts. Such is the need of our days."

I knew there were a lot of things that movies showed that really destroyed Faramir's character, but surprisingly I'm not that critical/upset about the changes to movie!Faramir on this reading. I'm noticing now the several times Faramir is "out of the picture" thinking. We don't really know, or see what he's thinking, but we know he apparently hasn't slept since capturing the hobbits. So, his end decision to let them go was not reached on a sudden whim. Also, even though I knew what was going to happen, there is more tension in this chapter over "What's Faramir going to decide!" than I had remembered. And I love it! Faramir looks the part of a kind and honorable captain. He says he wouldn't even snare an orc with a falsehood. Yet Frodo is reminded of Boromir was kind and honorable as well, until his sudden attack and quick change falling to the Ring.

But I think the most interesting thing I've learned about Faramir this time was his love for Boromir. It wasn't a blind love, it was a more powerful type of love, a "true love."

"You were not friendly with Boromir, or you did not part in friendship. You, and Master Samwise, too, I guess have some grievance. Now I loved him dearly, and would gladly avenge his death, yet I knew him well. Isildur's Bane - I would hazard that Isildur's Bane lay between you and was a cause of contention in your Company."

"If it were a thing that gave advantage in battle, I can well believe that Boromir, the proud and fearless, often rash, ever anxious for the victory of Minas Tirith (and his own glory therein), might desire such a thing and be allured by it."

Faramir shows that he knew and understood his brother well, knew his strengths but wasn't blinded to his brother's weaknesses. That is "true love" and I think it's something that can hit close to home for many people. I have family and friends who are (or have) fighting with personal demons, but I still love them and hope they're able to defeat their trials. Faramir called the Ring a "sore trial for Boromir" and that sentiment certainly resonates with me.

[Lail]

I do think Frodo is quite different in the movies - not at all the tough, wise, elf-like hobbit we get in the books. My impression is that he does have genuine pity for Gollum but he also believes he will be useful. It reminds me a little of Gandalf’s offer of mercy to Saruman in TTT Book I - offering pity while also trying to gain a strategic ally.

4. Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Wow those descriptions of Ithilien are lush! It felt Mediterranean-like to me! It is a nice reprieve in setting for Sam and Frodo after the Emyn Muil and the marshes.

I have been waiting for the moment Sam says “Po - ta - toes” because I couldn’t remember if it was a movie invention or Tolkien himself. But we don’t get Boil em, mash em, stick em in a stew in the book so I guess it’s both. When Sam sent Gollum off to fetch rabbits, I thought of the dog-master analogy that was mentioned previously.

Besides beautiful Ithilien, this chapter sees us meet Faramir and the Rangers, oliphaunts and the Haradrim (my favorite baddies) for the first time! The world expands again with these introductions and we are removed a little from the quest of Frodo and the Ring and reminded of the larger war with Mordor.

I also love that quote from Sam (which was sort of reworked into Faramir’s speech in the movie I think? been a while since I watched).

5. The Window on the West
I saw a parallel to the Hunters reaching Rohan and Men generally being suspicious of outsiders when Faramir says they are commanded to “slay all whom I find in this land without the Lord of Gondor” but again, like the Rohirrim, makes an exception for the Fellowship members. Faramir goes on to say he does not “slay man or best needlessly, and not gladly even when it is needed.”

Faramir shares a lot of wisdom and knowledge here and seems to be one of the few characters we see (outside the White Council) who has, or realises, some idea of Gandalf’s greater purpose - “This Mithrandir was, I now guess, more than a lore-master: a great mover of the deeds that are done in our time.”

Faramir faces a sort of test here - learning of the Ring within his grasp and he shows great strength and wisdom (and “the very finest quality” of course) when he affirms his statement that he “would not take this thing, if it lay by the highway. Not were Minas Tirith falling in ruin and I alone could save her, so, using the weapon of the Dark Lord for her good and my glory. No, I do not wish for such triumphs”. Not for a moment does he even seem to consider using or taking the Ring after he learns the true nature of Frodo’s quest. I put an emphasis on my glory because those two words seem to separate him from his brother Boromir as Faramir seems to imply that Boromir sort of sought power and glory (though I am struggling to find the quote to back me up here, I thought it was mentioned at some stage!).
---
When I read this bit about the Rohirrim who “love war and valour” I had the very same thought after our Grima discussion, @Boromir88! I will say I view him as an outcast in Rohan even if it is not made explicitly clear in the text.

Your observations of Faramir’s love for his brother are beautiful. To me, that is unconditional love, a rare thing to find that should be treasured when it is.

And for something a bit lighter, here is one of my favourite moments showing Sam’s common sense:

“‘Is it the custom in your land to wash the head before supper?’ said the man who waited on the hobbits.
‘No, before breakfast,’ said Sam. ‘But if you’re short of sleep cold water in the neck’s like rain on a wilted lettuce.’”

[Boromir88]

@Lailyn, yes, thank you, "unconditional love" were the words I was looking for yesterday. I couldn't think of the right ones.

I also love that quote from Sam (which was sort of reworked into Faramir’s speech in the movie I think? been a while since I watched)

Yes it is Faramir who is given Sam's lines about the dead haradrim soldier in the movies. It's one of the instances where even though it's dialogue from the book (which is still better than The Hobbit's movie script), I would have preferred it to stay with Sam. I think the true power of the statement was meant for it to be Sam's first experience of a war of "Men against Men," to describe the horrors and shock of young men fighting other young men in World War I: He wondered what the man's name was and where he came from, and if he was really evil of heart, or what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would not really rather have stayed there in peace"


I can't remember if Faramir says those exact words in the movie, but it is something very similar and the same feelings in wondering about the life of a dead "enemy" combatant are evoked. But I think giving the feelings to Faramir changes the meaning, because this wouldn't have been Faramir's first experience of seeing a dead enemy soldier, like it was with Sam's. I think it is sort of meant to soften Faramir's character as he struggles with the decision to obey his father or let the hobbits go. So, giving Faramir those lines changes the context to make it about him doing his duty to his father or not. I think it lessens the impact of that moment in the books where Sam gets his: "first view of a battle of Men against Men; and he did not like it much."

I loved their decision to give Eomer the line about Grima watching and haunting his sister's footsteps for too long in the movie. In the books it's Gandalf who gives that line, which is ok, but I don't think it has the same impact as Eomer saying it in the movie. It's a great line in revealing the idea that Grima is a creeper and possibly betrayed his people because he desired Eowyn, but how frequently was Gandalf around, you know? It has more impact, and makes more sense, (to me) coming from Eomer. But I digress too much, just wanted to give an example of where giving lines to different characters can be better, or worse, because it changes the context.

Faramir shares a lot of wisdom and knowledge here and seems to be one of the few characters we see (outside the White Council) who has, or realises, some idea of Gandalf’s greater purpose

Yes! And what's interesting about Faramir is throughout the chapter we detect and see he has more of a Numenorean air than Boromir did. Faramir sort of takes us through the "Men of the West" and the "Middle Peoples" or "Men of the Twilight." Commenting that perhaps they are becoming more similar to the "Men of the Twilight" like the Rohirrim. Or as Eomer says, he seemed to view Boromir as more similar to the Rohirrim than the Gondorians:

"Your news is all of woe!" cried Eomer in dismay. "Great harm is this death to Minas Tirith, and to us all. That was a worthy man! All spoke his praise. He came seldom to the Mark, for he was ever in the wars on the East-borders; but I have seen him. More like to the swift sons of Eorl than to the grave Men of Gondor he seemed to me, and likely to prove a great captain of his people when his time came." (The Riders of Rohan)

Ha! What's funny is here is another quote that suggests Grima is definitely an outcast in Rohan. Eomer sings praises of Boromir as "a worthy man!" but it's all about his prowess in battle and as a captain. But I digress again, because I really wanted to get to if Boromir was more like the Rohirrim, "The Men of the Twilight" than Faramir is closer to the Numenoreans, "The Men of the West." I like the last exchange in the chapter where Sam says that Faramir seems to have an air of "well, Gandalf, of wizards.". Faramir corrects him and says:

"Maybe," said Faramir. "Maybe you discern from far away the air of Numenor."

What I'm really curious to get to now, because I haven't thought about Boromir/Faramir/Denethor in this context before is Faramir has more Numenorean blood in him than Boromir, and it's stated that he is more similar to Denethor in that way. I always took that to mean that Denethor favored Boromir because Faramir reminded him too much of himself. But I'm curious to "meet" Denethor again on this reread and see how Denethor's "Numenorean air" is different from Faramir's. Faramir says perhaps Sam detects the "air of Numenor" and Faramir is more similar to Denethor in that regard. However, if Faramir displays his Numenorean blood to show his quality, Denethor perhaps represents the downfall of Numenor.

[Boromir88]

The Forbidden Pool

What I'm really noticing on this reread is again just how wrong they got Frodo in the movie. It's more than just being portrayed as weak, but also easily fooled and manipulated by Gollum. Faramir tries to impress hard on Frodo that no good is going to come from sparing Gollum's life and keeping him around. Frodo again demonstrates that he suspects Faramir speaks truly but he needs Gollum to have any hope of succeeding. Gondor can't get Frodo to where he must go and this is a great line:

"But where else will you direct me?" said Frodo. "You cannot yourself, you say, guide me to the mountains, nor over them. But over the mountains I am bound, by solemn undertaking to the Council, to find a way or perish in seeking. And if I turn back, refusing, the road in its bitter end, where then shall I go among Elves or Men? Would you have me come to Gondor with this Thing, the Thing that drove your brother mad with desire? What spell would it work in Minas Tirith? Shall there be two cities of Minas Morgul, grinning at each other across a dead land filled with rottenness?"

Faramir accepts this is true and only asks then that Frodo remembers not to trust his guide, because there is growing malice in him. However, so far, Frodo has shown that he does not trust Gollum, but as Gollum has not yet broken his promise, Frodo will not break his and be proven "faithless." It is very different from Frodo's motivations in the films, where he gets manipulated by Gollum to send Sam "home."

And to end on a bit of a lighthearted moment, what is this...the 3rd time Sam's been caught eavesdropping? Once in Bag End, second time at The Council and now here...

"It is worth a few shivers. But that is not what I brought you to see - though as for you, Samwise, you were not brought, and do but pay the penalty of your watchfulness."

I would say though this "penalty" for his eavesdropping is so far the lightest! Bag End his penalty was leaving the Shire with Frodo. At the Council it was going to Mordor. And here it is shivers from getting out of his warm bed and wine!

[Lail]

@Boromir88 glad I could help! I'll say true love and unconditional love are quite different to me but of course there's room for individual interpretation there.

Sam's lines about the dead Haradrim/Faramir's semi-similar speech in the movies are both very powerful and memorable passages for me in both mediums. I agree there is more impact in Sam's perspective, almost a loss of innocence as he sees his first non-orc combat. Still, I am glad it was kept in the movie in some form.

What interesting thoughts on Faramir's Numenorean air vs. that of his family and Boromir's more Men of the Twilight demeanor. While the differences between the two brothers are fairly obvious, I don't think my brain would have gone in that direction though I might have called Faramir more "elven". I may be grasping at straws here, but perhaps Faramir took more after his mother, Finduilas, who was related to Prince Imrahil and therefore had some elven blood?

6. The Forbidden Pool
I don't have a lot to say about this one other than Frodo once again makes Gollum swear on the Precious. He doesn't give the same warning this time, though, about what will happen if Gollum breaks his promise.

The most notable thing in this chapter for me was the history of the Nine. I somehow totally forgot that they were mostly Numenorean and am slightly embarrassed bu not afraid to admit it. The Nazgul are fascinating entities and I always want to know more about their identities but at the same time I feel like the lack of specific knowledge almost makes them more fearful - fear of the unknown and all that.

[Boromir88]

@Lailyn I don't think my brain would have gone in that direction though I might have called Faramir more "elven". I may be grasping at straws here, but perhaps Faramir took more after his mother, Finduilas, who was related to Prince Imrahil and therefore had some elven blood?

I don't think that is grasping at straws, although I can't remember what's said of Finduilas, other than she died at a young age. Faramir was, I think, 5 when she died. But yes, she did have Elven blood being Imrahil's sister and it seems possible he is more "elven" through her. We'll have to keep this in mind for ROTK because now I want to learn more about Finduilas. It was said that Denethor loved her and when she died at a young age that's when it seemed he first fell into despair. If Faramir did resemble his mother more, it certainly could have contributed to Denethor's attitude.

[Lail]

@Boromir88 yes I will do the same and indeed a good point about Denethor's attitude toward Faramir if he reminds him of Finduilas.

7. Journey to the Crossroads
I didn’t have many bookmarks in this chapter, either. Mostly in my notes, I remarked on how much of a hurry Gollum was in to get going onward (to lead them to Shelob??) and that the three are blindfolded out of Henneth Annun and Frodo insists they are all treated equally, not dissimilar to how the Fellowship agreed to go blindly into Lorien together.

A very memorable passage is in this chapter though which shines a sort of hope on their hopeless mision:

Suddenly, caught by the level beams, Frodo saw the old king's head: it was lying rolled away by the roadside. `Look, Sam!' he cried, startled into speech. `Look! The king has got a crown again!'

The eyes were hollow and the carven beard was broken, but about the high stern forehead there was a coronal of silver and gold. A trailing plant with flowers like small white stars had bound itself across the brows as if in reverence for the fallen king, and in the crevices of his stony hair yellow stonecrop gleamed.

'They cannot conquer for ever!' said Frodo. And then suddenly the brief glimpse was gone. The Sun dipped and vanished, and as if at the shuttering of a lamp, black night fell.

8. The Stairs of Cirith Ungol
For some reason I became obsessed with lights in this chapter. I guess because it seems like such obvious symbolism for good but in the Passage of the Marshes, we saw ill-bidding lights in the flames and now we see the light in the tower of Minas Morgul - a “a corpse-light, a light that illuminated nothing.”

Soon, we a good light again when Frodo holds the Phial of Galadriel during the moment in which he feels compelled to put on the Ring when the Lord of the Nazgul appears but does not:

And as he waited, he felt, more urgent than ever before, the command that he should put on the Ring. But great as the pressure was, he felt no inclination now to yield to it. He knew that the Ring would only betray him, and that he had not, even if he put t on, the power to face the Morgul-king - not yet.

I wonder why he seems able to resist the Ring’s lure as it seems to want to be wielded when the Nazgul are near. Is it because he learned a lesson on Weathertop? Is it because of some other outside force from afar or inner strength? Or do I ask - is it luck that his hands finds and falls on the Phial of Galadriel?

Again, I observed Gollum continuing to hurry them along and I wondered if it was because he wants to get them to Shelob thinking he’ll be able to score the Ring when She is done with them, if it is because he is terrified of the Nazgul and Sauron and does not want to be discovered. In the end, I settled on a combination of these two things.

I wondered who made the Stairs originally or what purpose they were meant to serve. Seeing as the stairs are worn on the edges they appear to have been used at one time or other (or just Orcs?), so I referred to Tolkien Gateway which told me that no one really knows. Anyone have creative speculation on this?

Finally, we get a somewhat lighthearted moment as Frodo and Sam exchange their speech about stories and heroes and adventures. This is one of my favorite moments for sure.

[Boromir88]

Journey to the Cross-Roads

This chapter is like that "calm before the storm." Faramir remarks, and as the hobbits get closer to their destination, there is an uneasy quietness and peace. Nothing seems to be going on, there's no movement, apparently no enemies around. It's empty and quiet, but a false peace.

@Lailyn, I love the end of the chapter, "Look! The king has a crown again!" (I'm so glad it's in the movie's extended editions). It's a tiny glimmer that raises their spirits, before it's gone again:

"They cannot conquer for ever!" said Frodo. And then suddenly the brief glimpse was gone. The sun dipped and vanished, and as if at the shuttering of a lamp, the black night fell.

It reminds me of previous chapters going through the lands of Hollin, Rohan, Isengard. I believe it's Gandalf that said it takes a while for a land to forget that Elves used to live there, and Aragorn's exclamation "what's happening to this land" when they go through Rohan. All the lands are becoming tortured, threatened, changing under Sauron and Saruman.

Minas Ithil becomes Minas Morgul. And the Teeth of Mordor:

Upon them stood the Teeth of Mordor, two towers strong and tall. In days long past they were built by the Men of Gondor in their pride and power, after the overthrow of Sauron and his flight, lest he should seek to return to his old realm. But the strength of Gondor failed, and men slept, and for long years the towers stood empty. Then Sauron returned. Now the watch-towers, which had fallen into decay, were repaired, and filled with arms, and garrisoned with ceaseless vigilance. Stony-faced they were, with dark window-holes staring north and east and est, and each window was full of sleepless eyes. (The Black Gate is Closed)

But even in Mordor, Frodo and Sam see the old king has a crown again and even Sauron can't conquer the land forever; even though it's a quick, fleeting moment.

[Boromir88]

The Stairs of Cirith Ungol

Gollum looked at them. A strange expression passed over his lean hungry face. The gleam faded from his eyes, and they went dim and grey, old and tired. A spasm of pain seemed to twist him, and he turned away, peering back up towards the pass, shaking his head, as if engaged in some interior debate. Then he came back and slowly putting out a trembling hand, very cautiously he touched Frodo's knee - but almost the touch was a caress. For a fleeting moment, could one of the sleepers have seen him, they would have thought that they beheld an old weary hobbit, shrunken by the years that had carried him far beyond his time, beyond friends and kin, and the fields and streams of youth, an old starved pitiable thing.

In the next two chapters, if I remember correctly it's confirmed that Gollum's "disappearances" were to sneak off to Shelob as he planned to betray the hobbits. I did not remember this moment though, where it seems like Gollum is close to doing the right thing and backing out of his plan. There is an "interior debate," he reaches out a "trembling hand," and "almost the touch was a caress.".

But Sam wakes up and mistakes Gollum's caress for something evil, calling him an old villain, which turns Gollum against any hope of his redemption:

Gollum withdrew himself, and a green glint flickered under his heavy lids. Almost spider-like he looked now, crouched back on his bent limbs, with his protruding eyes. The fleeting moment had passed, beyond recall. 'Sneaking, sneaking!' he hissed. 'Hobbits always so polite, yes. O nice hobbits! Smeagol brings them up secret ways that nobody else could find. Tired he is, thirsty he is, yes thirsty; and he guides them and he searches for paths, and they say sneak, sneak. Very nice friends, O yes my precious, very nice.'

Sam tries to apologize but the damage had already been done. I did not remember there was this moment though where Gollum appeared very close to redemption. I believed after Frodo's trick to get him captured by Faramir, he was dead set on leading them to Shelob. It appears Gollum's "caress" is his moment where he finally sees Frodo for what "his Precious" is doing to him. As Frodo says now that he "saw" Gollum he did pity him. I think in this fleeting moment Gollum saw exactly what the Ring was doing to Frodo and also did "pity him." Poor Sam, gets startled and mistake it for something evil.

@Lailyn, I love the description of a "corpse-light" in contrast with the light of Phial and light of the moon when it was Minas Ithil.

[Boromir88]

So I've had a bit of a hectic holiday season over the last 7-10 days, but ready now to continue. I think we'll use the rest of this week and next week to discuss/wrap up The Two Towers. I'll be ready to move on to Return of the King on January 10th.

Shelob's Lair

The history of Shelob and description of her "reek" and evilness is fabulous. I'm curious though if anyone when they were younger skimmed this chapter, or fast-forwarded Shelob's part in the movie?

I have a rather pleasant, let's co-exist attitude towards spiders. It's funny, to me, that Shelob is called "Sauron's cat" and their relationship being one where they aren't exactly "friends" but rather have a non-hostility pact. I find it funny because that's basically my attitude towards spiders. They can live in my house and for the most part I never see them, but when I do it's a "ok catch some nasty bugs for me and I'll let you just stay in that corner." However, arachnophobia is probably one of the most common fears and I have more than a few friends who have an intense fear of spiders. If that's the case, I imagine Shelob's lair is not a pleasant chapter for people.

The one thing that I don't like is when when I don't see the web and walk straight into it. Oh, that's so icky and it breaks my pact with spiders as I just start imagining all kinds of yucky stuff sticking in my hair or walking face first into a spider web. So that part I really feel for Frodo (and the dwarves in The Hobbit).

[Woggy Hardbotom]

@Boromir88 re: your second last post - if you haven't already, have a read of Letter #246 (all quotes below are from this Letter). Tolkien goes in depth about Gollum's caress of Frodo and then Sam's interruption of the moment, as well as addresses all the points you make, and in fact calls it "perhaps the most tragic moment of the Tale." The Letter is a few pages long so I won't type it all out, but as to WHY Sam acted as he did:

This is of course due to the 'logic' of the story'. Sam could hardly have acted differently. (He did reach the point of pity at last (III 221-222) but for the good of Gollum too late.)

So it was the final moment of possible redemption for Gollum and the final moment where Sam could start pitying him whilst it would still help Gollum. Had he done so, Tolkien explains in the Letter that the entire journey into Mordor and to Mount Doom would be different (presuming now they would not encounter Shelob) and how Gollum would have acted in the final stages:

Certainly at some point not long before the end he would have stolen the Ring or taken it by violence (as he does in the actual Tale). But 'possession' satisfied, I think he would then have scarified himself for Frodo's sake and have voluntarily cast himself into the fiery abyss.

So the end result may not have been too different, but it would have utterly changed all three characters involved.

Sam would never have been a ringbearer (and then likely not permitted to sail West)
Frodo would have seen that there WAS hope in redemption and some level of 'cure' from the Ring
Gollum would have been wholly redeemed.

(also trying my darnedest to catch up and be ready when RotK kicks off, still a ways behind, but thought you might be interested in this letter - it really is one of the most fascinating of all the Letters in my opinion)

[Boromir88]

@Woggy Hardbotom I am familiar with the letter you talk about, but it's been so long since I've read any of them I forgot what number it was. Maybe the best thing I purchased for myself in 2020 was the Letters of JRR Tolkien and my resolution this year is to read 1 letter a day. So far, so good.

Thank you for sharing the context, I knew Tolkien was talking about "Gollum's pawing" but did not know Tolkien also speculated how the characters would have been changed if things went differently.

And no worries about racing to catch up. I've been thinking about taking a longer, more substantial break before heading into ROTK. Hopefully you'll be able to join in.

[Lail]

9. Shelob’s Lair
I had the strangest experience while reading this chapter. I remembered reading it in my old bedroom at my parents’ house at about 13 years old and being absolutely terrified at the idea of a giant spider! Though it did not have the same effect on me now, I still think Tolkien did a great job with the suspense and the scary atmosphere. It was obviously very memorable to me as a scared-of-spiders young teenage girl!
These days, I’m with you, Boro - I always let all the spiders in my house live so they eat all the other bugs!

I was wondering - does Gollum actually go tell or warn Shelob about the hobbits? I think this question maybe gets answered in the next chapter when the orcs mention seeing Gollum in the tunnels the night before? I always thought that was sort of part of his plan.

I always read the moment of Sam pawing at Frodo as being like him remembering his own "humanity" (for lack of better word) from his old life. It is a sad moment to me because when was the last time Gollum had any kind of affectionate touch from anyone? There is research and thinking that humans need physical affection in order to be mentally/emotionally healthy and that's what it made me think of.

Also - I'm happy to do a wee break before starting RotK. The reading is easy for me - its the summing up my notes that takes time.

[Eamila Bolger]

I am so sorry that I missed all this. We have been in lockdown since half of December, meaning that I had to do my office work at home while the kids are trying to do schoolwork at home too. Since our youngest has autism, it was hard on him (and me) to have lost all structures. I've been doing my household chores in the evening ever since and haven't been reading a word... I miss it!
The lockdown is not ending yet, alas, but hopefully kids up to 12 are allowed to go back to school next week. I will still be terribly behind, but I hope to find time then to join you again here!

[Lail]

@Eamila Bolger. The read along is on pause for a bit and I think we've all got a bit behind. If you have anything you want to discuss as you're reading, go for it! I'm happy to rewind a bit and discuss prior chapters. wishing you well in this crazy world!

[Boromir88]

Yes, it has been a long pause and I thank you all for your patience while I got some things in my life sorted. And despite not posting here I did finish reading the entire book.

So, as far as continuing from here. I think I'll be able to write some posts on Shelob and The Choices of Master Samwise over this weekend. Then leave the following week March 15-21 as a review for everyone still around to come back and wrap-up The Two Towers, Book IV.

Thank you again for everyone being kind and understanding.

[Lail]

Good to see you again, Boro! I hope your return means good things. I have re-reading to do for TTT as I think I lost my old notes I never posted. If I happen to not make it, I will be there for RotK for sure.

[Fuin Elda]

Behold I have found an egg in Shelob's Lair well at least a post about it.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

@Fuin Elda you are spamming Lore!

[Fuin Elda]

Blame @Winddancer and @Silky Gooseness . I am only gathering the eggs:lol:. Honestly there was no new discussion for me to add here really