Do Balrogs have wings?

[Li.]

Personally, I think they do. I think the reason that the Balrog Gandalf had a fight with didn't fly out of the chasm of Khazad Dum was because his wings had atrophied from not being used for a few millennia. Also, that bit in the book where Gandalf has a fight with the Balrog definitely describes it as having wings. ALSO, if I was a quasi deity and I got to choose my own form, I would definitely pick a form that had wings. If we're saying that Balrogs didn't have wings then we are also saying their stupid.

Thoughts?

[Oro]

http://lotrplaza.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=235254 Is an unreachable thread that would answer all your questions if somehow I was able to access it. The Plaza was once a wealth of debating knowledge but somehow it fell apart.

Lindol how are you? I’m enjoying seeing your troll lore posts! Funny reminder to the way things used to be. If only we could page Elenhir to read your post right now. Miss the good old debate days with long posts and even better arguments.

[Eldy Dunami]

Fortunately, the Wayback Machine has a copy of "On Balrogs" here. There's also an (updated?) version of it on Google Docs, which I found linked to from r/tolkienfans on Reddit, where I believe Elenhir was active at some point.

[Oro]

Eldy you are a miracle worker. Great find. Still I figure Li is playing around by posting some of the Plaza’s most often asked questions and most argued over questions. But thanks for the find! Still wish we could get Elenhir in here.

[Mojo]

The passage that a lot of people point to is this one from Fellowship (emphasis mine):

The Balrog reached the bridge. Gandalf stood in the middle of the span, leaning on the staff in his left hand, but in his other hand Glamdring gleamed, cold and white. His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings. It raised the whip, and the thongs whined and cracked. Fire came from its nostrils. But Gandalf stood firm.

`You cannot pass,' he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. `I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.'

The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall; but still Gandalf could be seen, glimmering in the gloom; he seemed small, and altogether alone: grey and bent, like a wizened tree before the onset of a
storm.

A lot of the argument comes from how you interpret the phrase "like wings" in the first paragraph. Does it mean actual wings or it just appeared visually similar to wings? To me, the final paragraph is pretty clear "its wings were spread from wall to wall."

[geordie]

I disagree. 'like two vast wings' is a simile. The shadow was Like two vast wings.
'' its wings were spread from wall to wall'' is just an extension of the simile.
Balrogs do not have wings.

[Mojo]

Alternatively, they could be seen as discussing two different aspects of the Balrog.

"the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings" is discussing the shadow around the Balrog.

"its wings were spread from wall to wall" is talking about a different part of the Balrog's physical body, not "the shadow" as previously discussed, but "its wings."

I am pretty firm in the camp that Balrogs do have wings. However, I could be convinced that they are ineffective wings that are not strong enough to enable the Balrogs to fly.

[Thorin Firehelm]

<tangent: I remember Elenhir writing at length about this in AL years back>

I have always found the root of this debate to be twofold:

1) Tolkien frequently uses the verb 'fly' to mean "moving very fast'. E.G. 'fly you fools', 'with winged speed over Hithlum' when describing movement (balrogs or otherwise)
2) There is a literal references to wings in the Bridge of KD chapter. "its wings were spread from wall to wall".

I personally am a "none- winger" for the following reasons. First,"its wings were spread from wall to wall" doesn't necessarily need to mean literal wings. The shadows around it spread out like two vast wings when it first shows up. Why, then, can the wings that reach from wall to wall not simply be the shadows expanded in size as the Balrog raises up to its full height? Furthermore, its clear that this Balrog is acting on some survival instincts. His response to Glamdring is to bring out his own sword and fight. Coiling his whop round Gandalf reads to me like the Balrog making sure Gandalf gets dragged down with him. He knows he can't get back up to the Bridge, as he can't fly, so he is taking Gandalf down with him.

Second, Tolkien does use the whole "wings" metaphor to reference great speed. The pass with winged speed over Hithlum for example and this is consistent with the approach taken during TBOKD,

[Eldy Dunami]

I'm inclined to interpret the "its wings were spread from wall to wall" line as an extension of the previous simile. There's a similar bit in the Akallabêth: "And out of the west there would come at times a great cloud in the evening, shaped as if it were an eagle … And some of the eagles bore lightning beneath their wings…" The eagles in the second sentence are clouds, not actual birds, but Tolkien lets himself just say eagles rather than a more awkward phrasing like "cloud-eagles".

[Eldrith]

I have nothing to add to the debate except.. it did my heart good to see this question! Of course I believe it's a throwback question but honestly it wouldn't FEEL like the plaza without it. Lore was never my forte, but venturing in there and seeing the passionate scholars applying skills, footnotes, books (and sometimes biting wit) was always a treat. Looking forward to seeing it again. Also looking forward to seeing the reactions to the TV series and the new scholarly debates, and perhaps.. an influx of newbies..

[DEATH]

Laugh my fredegar ass off. Well played, @Li.

[Eldy Dunami]

Who broke the fredegar filter?

[Reikon Suchi-ru]

:o Potty mouths!

[Thorin Firehelm]

for absolutely no reason other than that was my favourite smiley back in the day. Can we not swear though? The plaza isn's a place for that.

[DEATH]

I think they don't.

[Troelsfo]

I disagree. 'like two vast wings' is a simile. The shadow was Like two vast wings.
'' its wings were spread from wall to wall'' is just an extension of the simile.
Balrogs do not have wings.

Thou shalt listen to @geordie!

Always!

Except, of course, if I explicitly tells you otherwise in a specific matter :smiley10:

[Chrysophylax Dives]

'like two vast wings' is a simile. The shadow was Like two vast wings.
'' its wings were spread from wall to wall'' is just an extension of the simile.
Balrogs do not have wings.

I used to be firmly in this camp. And I'll add that it is supported by the early draft in Treason of Isengard where (if my memory is correct) the Balrog is said to have the size and figure of a man (and no mention of wings). However, of late I've found myself wondering as follows:

1. The Balrog is a relic of the First Age of the World, an age of Myth.
2. The encounter we read about in LOTR occurs after the world was made round and the age of myth drawn to an end (except to the extent that the Rings of Power cause an overlap between Myth and History).
3. A distinctive feature of JRRT's conception of the divide between Myth and History seems to be that what are merely metaphors for us are realized in myth. (I suppose I would have to argue this point, but this is not the place - it draws in part on Verlyn Flieger's Splintered Light).

Therefore, when the hobbits and others in history encounter this primordial terror of an age of Myth it stands to reason that there is a blurring between metaphor and reality (analogous to the way that elves have physical bodies that Sam sees while Frodo at the Ford of Rivendell sees Glorfindel as a shining light).

From this, the endless discussion of whether Balrogs have wings is testimony to a stroke of artistic genius on Tolkien's part.

I really like this line of thought. Unfortunately I think it probably comes to nothing because, as you are well aware, a similie is not a metaphor.

[Nessila]

Didn't this question get resolved from years gone by? Balrogs do not have wings. Otherwise, they would be batrogs.

[Eldy Dunami]

For as much as I enjoy the retro vibe we have going here, I sometimes wish I had a like button.

[Rivvy Elf]

Only if they drink Red Bull

[Laintaen]

I'm in the "no wings" camp for three reasons:
1. Similes
2. Ancalagon
3. Elenhir

[DEATH]

I've actually potentially changed my mind because HE SAYS WINGS A LOT.

[geordie]

I've actually potentially changed my mind because HE SAYS WINGS A LOT.

yes, he does. For example, Tolkien says that the Prancing Pony has wings. And Eomer names Strider 'Wingfoot'.

[DEATH]

I've actually potentially changed my mind because HE SAYS WINGS A LOT.

yes, he does. For example, Tolkien says that the Prancing Pony has wings. And Eomer names Strider 'Wingfoot'.

"Does Aragorn have wings?" thread coming up.

[Boromir88]

Loke Clogwearer:

"Does Aragorn have wings?" thread coming up.

Or even the entire fellowship! Gandalf tells them "Fly, you fools!" before falling in Moria. Although it's a little unclear if Gandalf was trying to clue the fellowship on what his plan was next. We know after escaping Goblin-town in The Hobbit, the eagles rescued the dwarves. It's possible after Moria, Gandalf wanted the Fellowship to get the eagles to fly the ring to Mount Doom, and hence his clue "Fly, you fools!"

Where are we...ok seriously, right Balrog wings. One of the more fascinating pro-wing arguments I've seen, isn't actually from the metaphor of the Balrog's shadow, but afterwards when traveling down the Anduin and there is a fell beast flying overhead:

'I cannot,' said Gimli. 'But I'm glad that the shadow came no nearer. I liked it not at all. Too much it reminded me of the shadow in Moria - the shadow of the Balrog.' he ended in a whisper.~The Great River

Legolas shoots at a flying creature overhead and Gimli says it reminded him of the Balrog, which was argued that if the Balrog didn't have wings, why would Gimli say it reminded him of the Balrog? I side with Gimli wasn't reminded of the Balrog because of the same physical characteristics wings = flying creature. But a comparison to the "shadow" and "fear" of both. Then Frodo chimes in and is quite clear:

'It was not a Balrog,' said Frodo, still shivering with the chill that had come upon him. 'It was something colder. I think it was -' Then he paused and fell silent.~The Great River

[Elenhir]

And to make clear the implication, Frodo's unvoiced but blatant (and also correct) association of the feeling with the Nazgul is noteworthy because the characters aren't aware that the wraiths have taken to the air. If Frodo doesn't have to think flying is a trait of what he thinks he feels, neither does Gimli.

[Winddancer]

It would have been wonderful if someone had asked this of Tolkien before he died. But even if someone had, I don't think he would have answered it, I think he would want there to be some that think the Balrogs had wings and some not, simply because whichever is most terrifying to you is the effect he would want.
I don't think the second line is an extention of the similie, I do think that is what it is, that they had wings *runs away before getting pelted*

[Lail]

1. I just want to say that I'm so glad this thread is back.
2a. May be an unpopular opinion, but #ImWithWindy - they have wings.
2b. I sort of always imagined them with flightless wings akin to flightless birds like emu or kiwi. I never read the line as a simile, but as literal wings. In the end, I think its up to the reader's interpretation and imagination which is part of the magic.

[Androthelm]

Oh no, reading over this thread and something terrible has occurred to me. I've always always always been in the No-Wings camp, but @Boromir88, based on the Frodo quote you mention, I have to wonder--

Why would Frodo need to state that the flying creature wasn't a Balrog unless there was some chance Gimli actually thought it was? Not just similar, but actually the same--another winged creature?

[Boromir88]

Hello Androthelm well, Elenhir picked up where I left off, because honestly I didn't think about that point with Frodo telling Gimli it wasn't a Balrog:

And to make clear the implication, Frodo's unvoiced but blatant (and also correct) association of the feeling with the Nazgul is noteworthy because the characters aren't aware that the wraiths have taken to the air. If Frodo doesn't have to think flying is a trait of what he thinks he feels, neither does Gimli. -Elenhir

Frodo doesn't say it, but it's implied "it was something colder" that Frodo thinks it a Ringwraith. At this time, no one in the Fellowship would have reason to believe the Ringwraiths were given flying beasts. So, Elenhir brings up a good point, that both Gimli and Frodo aren't comparing based on the trait of flying/wings.

They are comparing the feel of terror.

Gimli says it reminds him of the Balrog.

Frodo says it's colder, and implies it's a Ringwraith. But Frodo, at this time in the story has no knowledge that the Ringwraiths returned and were given flying beasts.

[Androthelm]

Oh! I missed that one, whoops. Yes, that does seem to be generally in support of a winged Balrog.

[Nieliqui Vaneyar]

From what I've been able to understand, it appears they do have 'wings'. But of course, some houses have 'wings'. Most commercial and military pilots have those little 'wings' they wear on their uniform. (there was even a band called 'Wings', and I think a movie, too) And Gandalf did tell the others in the Fellowship to 'Fly!...Fly! although actually none of the Fellowship (appear to have) had 'wings'.

Of course, Tolkien did write the creature that approached was 'like a great shadow'. So it wasn't exactly a shadow, it was like a shadow. Oh, oh, wait, a moment later Tolkien writes 'His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings'. So, going with this simile thing, it's 'like' a shadow, then it's not, it's a creature with a shadow like two vast wings. But then it's not that, as 'its wings were spread from wall to wall.' Putting it all together, it seems to be a like a shadow that part of it became an actual shadow, which then appeared like wings which became actual wings. It would seem now the simile argument is there but carried out to a conclusion.

So, I think the Balrog does have 'wings', but that doesn't mean much of anything, really, since its 'wings' are Balrog wings and not necessarily Eagle wings or Raven wings or house wings or pilot wings. They're just 'wings' (like ostrich wings or dodo wings) . It looks like to me they're just there to add an additional element of imposing horror and strength so as to make any enemy cower (like Legolas and Gimli seemed to do).

There, problem solved. They are wings, but since at least the late 1930's according to Tolkien when he finally abandoned his original thoughts on The Book of Lost Tales and started changing things around to create a Middle-earth, the Balrog appears to have lost the ability of flight. Or else I suppose we could also claim that Tom Bombadil is really Tinfang Warble in disguise...and thanks to halfir's meticulous research(still miss him), we all know that's not true at all.

[Kementari]

I've actually potentially changed my mind because HE SAYS WINGS A LOT.

Is it possible to be both actually and potentially at the same time without creating angst? Asking for a friend.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

the wings are metaphorical, of a creature encountered in (the first age of) history who is a creature of (an earlier age of) myth, when metaphor was real.

[Quickbeam]

I’ve always imagined the Balrog as having wings of shadow. As if it is creating the Shadow from itself to cloud the mind of its enemy, forcing their sight to be overwhelmed by the contrast of darkness and flame.

So I‘m not sure if the Balrog has literal, leathery bat wings, but I do think that the “shadows like two vast wings” are a part of the Balrog, a tool of fear of confusion, and not just a visual element of that particular scene.

[Linhelm]

I have always been of the camp that they do not have wings, and that the "wings" tolkien is referring to is the expanse of shadow radiating from the balrog itself. Describing that shadow as wings is to give the reader a more firm visual within the mind. I have also entertained the thought that the balrog does not resemble the image of that portrayed in the movies and games, but is instead a humanoid figure with immense darkness and dark fire surrounding him making him all the more terrifying to the fellowship.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

I have also entertained the thought that the balrog does not resemble the image of that portrayed in the movies and games, but is instead a humanoid figure with immense darkness and dark fire surrounding him making him all the more terrifying to the fellowship.

It seems that Tolkien also entertained such a thought. In Fellowship: "a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater". But in the early draft (Treason of Isengard, p. 197): "A figure strode to the fissure, no more than man-high yet terror seemed to go before it."

[Boromir88]

Hello @Linhelm. I agree, I think the fantasy/pop culture stumbles in their portrayal of Balrogs because they are described as "demons" and often demons are drawn to have horns/wings/tusks. But I think it's just from our words can be really imprecise. If the Valar are like "Gods," the Maiar their servants/helpers are like "angels." Then Melkor the "fallen God" is Satan and his fallen servants, the Valaraukar, the Balrogs "demons of terror."

However, I think as you and @Chrysophylax Dives point out, pop culture falls into the trap of since Balrogs are demons, drawing them with features that are commonly associated with demons. Tolkien was usually pretty descriptive on how his races and characters look. Durin's Bane:

The flames roared up to greet it, and wreathed about it; and a black smoke swirled in the air. Its streaming mane kindled, and blazed behind it. - Fellowship of the Ring: Bridge of Khazad-dum

So, Durin's Bane has a "streaming mane." I wonder if it's something like a lion's mane, or more just a mane describing "long hair?" Overall, I think if Tolkien wanted to associate common physical features of demons with the Balrogs he would have done so.

I guess a counter argument would be, when it comes to trying to invoke fear/terror sometimes the less you know, the scarier it is. So, Tolkien trying to keep a "demon of terror" described more vaguely, as the quote Chrysophylax Dives mentions: "a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater". That's pretty vague and I think intended to be that way so an individual's creativity can roam and imagine their own picture of a Balrog. And that might be more terrifying than if Tolkien was more descriptive. The fear of the unknown.

[Fuin Elda]

Behold the question is not if balrogs have wings it's if there is an egg in this thread. There is.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

“What you egg!” (Macbeth, Act 4, Scene 2)

[bilbobaggins764]

Personally, I think they do. I think the reason that the Balrog Gandalf had a fight with didn't fly out of the chasm of Khazad Dum was because his wings had atrophied from not being used for a few millennia. Also, that bit in the book where Gandalf has a fight with the Balrog definitely describes it as having wings. ALSO, if I was a quasi deity and I got to choose my own form, I would definitely pick a form that had wings. If we're saying that Balrogs didn't have wings then we are also saying their stupid.

Thoughts?

I always thought they had wings from my reading as well. I used to listen to the back and forth debate on the subject [at times it got intense lol] but to me a plain reading indicated wings.

[Legolas]

Funny fact. Since my mother-tongue is German I have to admit that I am currently reading The Lord of the Rings in German. In fact, I'm at the point where the Balrog is pulling Gandalf down into the darkness. Shortly before that, it is described in German that the Balrog actually spreads its wings (dragon-like).

[Eldy Dunami]

Wait, is "dragon-like" part of the quote? That's ... an interesting translation decision, if so. I wonder if the translator knew about the sleeping bear they were poking and felt cheeky.

[Legolas]

It is not spelled out that the Balrog spreads its wings like a dragon. In German there are several words for wings. The word used during this passage, however, describes huge wings, from like a giant bird or dragon

[Eldy Dunami]

Ah, I see! Thanks for explaining.

[Lail]

May I formally announce I am now on Team #NoWings (GASP) because of specific reasons I can no longer remember while doing my last re-read of the books which led me to think this.. Something to do with Tolkien's use of metaphorical wings elsewhere, I think.

[Elenhir]

Something to do with Tolkien's use of metaphorical wings elsewhere, I think.

'over the land there lies a long shadow, westward reaching wings of darkness', from the prophecy of Malbeth the Seer, recounted in 'The Passing of the Grey Company', perhaps? It's a popular choice for this sort of pivot.

[Legolas]

@Kirinki So I understand your point of view, but I would have to disagree with you. I agree that Tolkien's use of wings or the word fly can be confusing. However, because I just compared the Balrog passage in English and German, I have a different picture.

1. As mentioned in German it is clearly said that the Balrog spreads its great wings.

2. Furthermore, the exact translation in German is not: "Fly (...)" but contextually "flee, you fools!".

For me, your realization, therefore appears as subtly wrong and as an over-interpretation. However, I actually just discovered the "What is lore?" thread and it made me think... When do facts actually stop and when does Tolkien allow interpretation? Does he even encourage the reader to interpret certain things or was it his intention to create a flawless world where everything can be explained and justified? So could it even be his intention that one reader imagines a Balrog to be a winged fire monster, while another interprets it as a wingless one?

[Romeran]

I think the most damning point against wings is that the “wings” supposedly spread from one end of the cavern to the next. Given the size of the Balrog and the size of the cavern this would be an absurdly large set of “wings” if they were real. Also I generally wouldn’t point to a translation as evidence since it’s a secondary interpretation.

[Elenhir]

@Legolas, Tolkien wrote in English, not German. Using your reading of a translation to find fault in someone's interpretation from the original source text is completely without merit, even if the German text had an absolute, unquestionable reading. I doubt it does, since nothing you've said about the German phrasing discounts metaphor, and the German language is not somehow devoid of metaphor. Before considering where facts stop, it might be worth putting in some effort into considering where they start. You're painting a picture where it's either your personal assumed reading or a wild west of interpretation, but your personal reading is just that: personal. It's not the default the rest of us must abide by.

@Romeran, I think the most damning point against wings is that Tolkien devised three separate threads of figurative language to describe the shadow around the Balrog, used them repeatedly over the course of several pages, and the one snippet of a sentence people tend to use to claim the wings were instead factual is part of the sentence where he takes all three of those threads and finally weaves them together for one complete description, and then discontinues the use of all of them, reverting back to the word 'shadow', the less figurative base he had built them up from, for the rest of the passage.