Command Tent - Cavalry OOC thread

[Taethowen]

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW That was a lot of reading! Okay, I'll start with the the Marshals thing. I completely agree with elections and terms. HOWEVER on terms, I'd like to propose that we keep it closer to books in that we let the people decide when they've had enough of a particular Marshal or let the Marshal step down themselves rather than set a particular time limit since Cavalry isn't a rulership position. I feel like there does need to maintain some amount of consistency longer than the sample time limit of six months given.

Six months is *definitely* too short of a time period. I would propose that Marshals serve a 1-year term, with the initial set of elected Marshals serving a slightly longer period of time to get everything established, and then start staggering the elections so that only one new Marshal is being introduced at a time.

It might look something like one Marshal serves a 1 year term, and then we hold the next nomination/election period. The next Marshal in line serves an 18-month term, and then there's the next nomination/election period. The final Marshal serves a 24 month term overall, and so basically the entire team rotates through gradually over a 2-year period. Assuming NuPlaza survives that long, LOLOL. (But it would be grand if it did.) (And hopefully that makes the same amount of sense that it does in my head.)

My one thing I do suggest though is that below Marshal/Feldmarshal ranks people keep indefinitely. Example, Bealdorhaelend or Aerest Paeth. I say this because changing who is in charge of the ranks which we have only one for each Eored at any given point in time can be utterly confusing.

I agree. There's no need to shuffle through those ranks so quickly. And eventually, if there's enough participants, there's no reason why there can't be 2 of each of those ranks. However, it is a mark of good leadership for someone in a ranking position like that to be considerate of allowing other people to move up through the ranks eventually.

[Allacan ob Burzum]

I’m super sorry to everyone, I edited this post SO many times but I promise I am done. If you can see this, you are looking Nd at my most recent version. And I promise to leave it alone now.

completely agree with elections and terms. HOWEVER on terms, I'd like to propose that we keep it closer to books in that we let the people decide when they've had enough of a particular Marshal or let the Marshal step down themselves rather than set a particular time limit since Cavalry isn't a rulership position. I feel like there does need to maintain some amount of consistency longer than the sample time limit of six months given. I also feel like we need to reserve the right for the Marshals to vote out Marshals that don't work cohesively with the other Marshals so that we can maintain a good team balance.

Not fully caught up on this but wanted to hop in and reply to @Rowena Ellenweorc’s comment on terms.

I appreciate being a marshal for only 6 months may be little too short, however thag sounds like you are proposing that we continue as we are already. I’m sure you can remember the issue that Shivased has when she was a ruler, or way back on old plaza shortly after I left the cavalry the first time. She encountered a particular person who refused to step down from being a First Marshal even when they were asked to by numerous people.

Unless you are saying that Marshals shouldn’t have a time limit like the admins, because Marshals aren’t admins? I.e. rulers used to have time limits? (Not to my knowledge?). I still disagree; Marshals are in some ways mini-admins of all cavalry activity.

The main issue with no fixed terms and relying on people’s ‘good grace’ is that you force people to approach their friends and comrades and say they aren’t welcome any more (a situation I would absolutely HATE to be in at ANY time). Either that OR you have to stick with whatever Marshals you have for as long as it lasts for them to get bored, even if they aren’t suitable for the role any more.

There have been many instances in the cavalry’s history where people have been asked to step down but haven’t, or people have become inactive but want to keep the post. Generally the Marshal’s team have managed this, but it isn’t always easy and can lead to a lot of upset and hurt feelings.

For example, imagine if you felt Shiva was doing a bad job as First Marshal because she just wasn’t around enough and efforts to increase her activity continually failed and the cavalry was suffering. You as Second Marshal, along with your Third Marshal buddy, ask Shiva to step down but she said no or simply ignored you; what option is left to you then but to either put up with it or kick up a fuss with admins and/or other players that could ruin an otherwise wonderful friendship?

Having a fixed time-limit avoids all this drama, and helps people stay on good terms. People know how long they have to give it a go and can step down gracefully when that is over. Additionally, there is nothing to stop someone standing for a second turn if they want, and then people can decide if they want them to carry on as Marshal or replace them with a new face.

Regarding having the back-up option to get rid of a troublesome Marshal who ain’t co-operating; I appreciate your concern but it also kind of goes against the whole purpose of the proposed election.

If Marshals are democratically chosen, to then change that removes any sense of democracy. The whole point is to encourage an attitude of inclusion and co-operation, while allowing people to learn and develop their skills on the job if need be. It wound cause a lot of drama and upset feelings if Marshals could exclusively kick out another Marshal. If people are having issues with who they are working with, then I would hope they would talk about it or leave, or alternatively bring in a mediator such as a HCMA (another job that comes with the title is breaking up arguments between Marshal) or an admin (ruler if they existed).

Regarding marshals normally climbing the ladder of their respective Eored; I would like to think that people would be given an option to decline being a Marshal if they didn’t want to change Eored to the vacant spot, and the elected Marshals can work this out between them on this occasion. In future, it won’t be as much of an issue because it would be more advisable to replace Marshals one at a time (so you are voting for a specific Eored’s Marshal) rather than all at once.

@Rowena Ellenweorc Alla being a half-minion? Ow, I think? She’s loyal to the cavalry, she just goes about things in a unconventional manner. She’s that cop that throws the book out and drives their captain crazy but unfortunately keeps getting the job done so what can you do? It will all make more sense when the madness is all done and she comes to debrief the Marshals on what went down.

Also, and forgive me if I am wrong but I know of no rule that forbids someone from being both a ruler AND a cavalry Marshal. (Sure there are no rulers right now, but if there were...) It is obviously discouraged for someone to be both, due to the effort involved in both roles and to avoid a dictatorship, however I didn’t think there was a rule strictly forbidding it, especially when there was a second ruler and admins who could step in if things got wrong.

We really need those written up cavalry rules, people!

Also @Rowena Ellenweorc The rule was made clear by Shivased; only two characters allowed in the cavalry per player. I don’t think there is any need to change that just yet as we have enough players and we don’t want to fill the ranks with secondary characters that block others from climbing the chain of command. I don’t think Esme is needed as a Healand; we have two healers (you and Amadhrill already), plus Thali might still want to re-apply given she kinda almost finished her re-test and recently posted in the DR. Esme isn’t needed as a healer as you already get to roleplay the healer role as Bealdorhealand and others might want to give it a try. Either Esme is cavalry and goes on the roster and Audley leaves, or vice versa. I don’t think it is fair for Marshal’s to have three characters on the roster if everyone else is only allowed two. It seems unfair and would confuse things when Marshals step down.

And no-one is proposing elections or terms for ranks other than the Marshals. I think those roles should continue on as normal, because Marshals are able to demote/promote when necessary. The main issue is just the leader-level. Don’t worry, your Bealdorhaeland rank is safe for now (ok, maybe Allacan is half-minion, we need to do something about that)

[The Good Hunter]

I know I'm not technically a member of the Cav yet, having only joined up less that 24 hours ago, but I believe, to help set a good precedent moving forward, we should have an election right away (relatively speaking) for all three Marshal positions and allow all Cav members (whether Dim and I are included in that is up for debate) past and present to have a vote. If the voting is delayed in favor of just putting someone in the empty Marshal slot it could be seen as a delaying tactic, which I don't believe anyone here actually wants. An election now would make sure things are all above board and open and democratic, the way NuPlaza should be.

[Thalionwen Hunigfolm]

As someone who's served in the Cav in the past and may end up rejoining in the near future after all as I clear my plate, I think an election is the way to go. Open nominations, one year terms, and after a team has been voted in, a Cavalry summit or something of that nature could be convened to figure out how to deal with initial term limits, reelections, removal due to inactivity or abuse, etc. Basically a community consensus on reestablished rules. But I think a starting team of Marshals should be voted in first to get the Cav to full leadership capacity, so all of that could be overseen most effectively/without causing undue burden to Rowena and Shiva, who've done a bang up job getting the ball rolling.

That's just my two cents as a party with a vested interest.

[Taethowen]

Ok. I took a few moments (er, an hour) to gather my thoughts on the "what about a problematic marshal" issue and here's a basic proposal/timeline:

1. Elect the new Marshal team.
2. Marshal team establishes the new "rules" (with input/suggestions from the Cavalry as a whole) and outlines the OOC and IC responsibilities of the marshals.
3. A council is established that will mediate in cases of 'neglect,' 'insubordination,' etc. That council should consist of at least 1 of the current Marshals who is in good standing, the HCMA* (or more than one, if they're available), and likely one of the Plaza admin team. "Evidence" can be submitted and reviewed, and then the council presents that evidence to the Cavalry as a whole. Then the Cavalry votes on what to do.

*For those of you new to the Cav or potentially new, the HCMA is the High Councilor of Military Affairs. It is an honorary rank given to those who have honorably resigned from the rank of 1st Marshal. Currently, this includes @Allafyrefleorhtlig. Depending on the results of the proposed election, it would also include @Shivased.

[Rior Laegiel]

Yes, I was a member of the cavalry on old plaza. Being most active in the betingning of my cavalry days and while Olly was still a Rohir (before she magically became an elf all of a sudden and I had to start using npc's ). I was a sperewigend then a sperewigend 1st class.
Edit - I was a Dryhtguma later as well, didn't write it before because I wasn't sure but found it in an old thread posted in the archives.

[Rowena Ellenweorc]

It seems there is a bit of a misunderstanding on what I mean with 'let the people decide' -- I am not proposing we continue as we are already. I like the idea of elections. However I feel like there does have to be some sort of semblance of regularity in power. I do get what you are saying about people not wanting to step down when it is necessary, I remember a few times in the course of my Cavalry career when it should have happened, and then when it did happened things got thrust on me. But because of that, I feel like we need to let the people of Rohan/Cavalry decide when the time is right for a Marshal to go, rather than set a determined limit, or let the Marshal decide for themself if it is sooner. For example, say my frustrations were getting to me, I don't want to wait until my term ends to step down. But also if it's apparent I love my job and doing a good job, is it really fair to say, 'Um ______ amount of time has passed, time to elect a new Marshal?'

(And as for Esme, that's why she'll never be on the roster lol... she's just a filler where needed. She'll probably fade into the distance. For a long time I was the only haelend so there was a need for another haelend to help LOL. Shiva's the one who refused to put Audley on the roster though... :P So she better put him on now. LOOOL, and don't lie, Alla is a half-minion. You know it. But we love our half-minion.)

[Thalionwen Hunigfolm]

That makes sense, Rowena, but I don't think anyone would be opposed to a Marshal getting re-elected if they were doing a great job? There's no reason they can't stand for consecutive terms of service, as it were, just like Sam ended up being Mayor of the Shire many times over :) And if life stuff takes over, there should certainly be an option for someone to step down mid-term and for an emergency election to be called to replace them. The great thing about having three Marshals is that there'd be two more people to cover in the in between, were that situation to arise.

[Elarith]

Agree with pretty much everything from @Allafyrefleorhtlig @Thalionwen Hunigfolm @Frostbite and @Taethowen.

I think relying on people to oust someone from the job is pretty hard going. Time limits puts an end to that. And if someone wants to or has to step down early that’s not a problem.

People trying to find old Dragon Rooms - there are some in the OP of the Archives thread, mostly from ‘04. Are you trying to find later versions, such as from the Regions era? Also fairly sure I found an old Cav KP somewhere...

[Aodh Hammerhelm]

I feel like we need to let the people of Rohan/Cavalry decide when the time is right for a Marshal to go, rather than set a determined limit, or let the Marshal decide for themself if it is sooner. For example, say my frustrations were getting to me, I don't want to wait until my term ends to step down. But also if it's apparent I love my job and doing a good job, is it really fair to say, 'Um ______ amount of time has passed, time to elect a new Marshal?'

I think if we're going to go for voting we have to apply the other given corner stone of any democratic system - Set Terms of Office. I also think we should apply a a maximum number of terms served in an office.


Of course people can resign when they need to. Standing for re-election after a term allows the people to decide. And of course if you love your job, and are doing a good job this often results in you holding onto the position. Not always though, as Winston Churchill learnt after WWII ;)

[Shivased]

@Rowena Ellenweorc I definitely don't like the idea of marshals being able to vote out other marshals. I can see that being a big bone of contention. All I can think of is times in the past where we've had issues with particular marshals (you know who I'm thinking of), who could easily have used that to kick a marshal out they didn't like and make sure someone they could conspire with was voted in. I would hate that to happen to someone else. I think if there is an issue with a marshal, the the admins could be consulted or some sort of plan could be put in place to deal with that, but giving marshals the power to kick out other marshals I think is a disaster waiting to happen.

As for marshals ranking up from their own eoreds, I think with so few people, we may have to re-consider that right now. We can't not promote someone to marshal because they are from another eored, and I do remember a few instances in the past where marshals have come from different eoreds. It should be based on merit, not what eored you come from. And then be up to the new marshal if they want to switch eoreds, they can, or they can choose not to become a marshal. Also, if we're electing one marshal at a time, it works well because the nominations could easily come from that specific eored, so it wouldn't be an issue.

For timing of the election, I don't think it matters when we do it, before or after or during the RP, because rank really doesn't matter during it (actually rank/eored insignias are being taken from uniforms to put everyone on the same level). If rank becomes a need, we can play wibbly-wobbly with time as we usually do on plaza or alter things as needed. I wasn't aware we had a choice in mind for marshal. We have talked about it, but had not made an actual choice and were just going to use the RP to see what skills and potential everyone had.

I'm good with main characters getting promoted to major positions before secondary. I would suggest, for now given our numbers, that this means anything above Aethelwigend, which would include Paethfindians and Haelends. Rowena, We can list Esme as filler haelend until someone else comes up (like Alla pointed out, Thali may return and is a qualified haelend), but you already pretty much fill that role in the Westmark, and that would leave Audley off. It isn't fair if marshals can have more than two characters but nobody else can. Do you prefer having one over the other? I'll put in whichever one you want, though I think Audley is more realistic in the long-run.

Keeping ranks indefinitely I'm a little leery on. I agree we don't need an actual time limit and there is no reason to shuffle through those positions regularly, but part of the problem on the Old Plaza was that there was so little room for promotion, because people were around for ever. I think, eventually, people need to be willing to hand over positions like Bealdorhaelend or Aerest Paethfindian, or even Laermagister (Did I get that right? The Cavalry Trainer?) so that others can have a chance to be promoted and try new things. Again, I don't think there should be a time limit on those positions, but I wouldn't want someone to keep one rank for years and nobody else gets to experience it. It's happened in the past and it is frustrating for those who want new experiences. I feel like this is something that would have to be monitored by the marshals, and people asked to give up their position so it can be given to someone else, when the marshals feel that person has served long enough. Obviously it would be contingent on how long that person has served in a specific capacity (it wouldn't be right to say "you've done it for 3 months, that's enough") and if there is interest from other Cavalry members in holding the position.

Can I also suggest, that people cannot hold more than one rank/position per character. For example, a feldmarshal can't be aerest paethfindian, or a haelend can't also be a marshal. There would be exceptions, of course. The Laermagister is usually a Feldmarshal or Marshal. But otherwise, we are getting enough people now that it isn't fair to everyone if people start holding more than one position/rank per character.

@Dimcairien Luiniel I'd say anyone who currently has a Cavalry member, either fully-fledged Cavalry or in training. As long as they have a vested interest in the Cavalry, they should have a say.

@Allafyrefleorhtlig I agree, a one year term where to start off we stagger retirements would work great. Staggering it by six month periods would be the easiest way to ensure the changes are smooth and give time for the newest marshal to settle in. And in the even that a marshal steps down unexpectedly outside that timeline, the HCMA could step in to cover that spot until a new marshal is elected.

I'm also not aware of a rule where rulers couldn't be marshals and rulers at the same time, as both Rowena and I have been both. Sometimes it has been unavoidable, and there are always admins or another ruler to help monitor and manage to ensure things don't get to be too much for the ruler/marshal or things don't go wrong.

@Elarith Yes, we are mostly trying to find ones post-2004. I think the newest one I've been able to get into was 2006 or so. Not much after that is captured, so it is hard to find things.

I'm willing to put up a thread for Cavalry nominations on Monday (tomorrow I am doing minimal plaza stuff, I have a lot of RL stuff to do) and we can get the elections going. I agree with everyone who has said the sooner the better. There's no point in dragging it out, and once we have new marshals we can have a specific Cavalry discussion about terms, removal, etc.

Also @Rowena Ellenweorc While I know we're a team, I think in this thread, I'd rather if nobody talks for me and says I have agreed to things or made decisions. There is so much going on and being discussed that is new to the plaza and Cavalry, I think it is best if we all give our own opinions and let people confirm they agree or not. Most of our marshal discussions happened before this election was suggested so are rather void now. Speaking for people without their consent can also cause too much confusion if people don't actually agree or their opinion changes.

[Rowena Ellenweorc]

@Shivased I only said that you weren't putting my PCs on the rosters because that's what we had decided at the beginning, but clearly now we're okay with it.

As for Esme, like I said, she's only around until we get a full haelend system, and so if you want you can even just put her in Eastmark, she travels wherever she's needed, just like Rowena does. But if you don't want to do that at all, that's fine too. I'll just keep her as an assistant that travels with Rowena.

I don't see why there has to be a time limit on Aerest or Bealdorhaelend and whatnot. And as for dual roles, the only ones that I have issue with are Marshal/Ruler which is a non-issue at the moment. And even then it isn't always an issue. Too many times have Marshals held the ranks of BH or AP etc. It was fine. Besides, at this point in time, we don't have enough people to NOT double up. More than likely our higher ranks are going to have a lower rank title simply because we need those ranks.

[Shivased]

OK, GUYS, THE NEW RP IS UP!

PLEASE REPORT THERE FOR ROLL-CALL (just an OOC post reporting in) AND THE RP WILL BEGIN ON MONDAY

Linkie: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=394

[Rowena Ellenweorc]

Oops did mine IC

[Elarith]

Ok, I found a nice cache on the WayBack and dug up various Cavalry-related threads largely from '08 onwards (DRs, training threads, badges, etc.). I'll copy the links into the Archives thread now so as not to double up.

[Rowena Ellenweorc]

I can't guarantee I'll bee 100% active in the Cav RP due to school. I'm shooting to go to university after completing community college, so I'm putting in a ton of effort in school. That's more important than RP activities that require constant attention, so sorry if I get behind.

[Allacan ob Burzum]

(I suspect people like @Elvheimdros, @Bereth or @Eléowyn could possibly remember this better, but I’ll give it my best shot based on my own experience and recollection).

The HCMA and the Cavalry Council

Back when there a lot more members of the cavalry, the general management of the cavalry was run by the ‘Cavalry Council‘.

The Council consisted of the Three Marshals and any High Councillor for Military Affairs (HCMA) who was active at the time.

I think the council would also often include (by invitation of the Marshals) the Bealdorhealand, the Aerest Paethfindian, sometimes Feldmarshals, very rarely other people (usually because they needed a specific person’s perspective on a specific topic).

The Marshals ran the cavalry threads, organised campaigns, awarded promotions, dealt with this AWOL members/disciplinarians/demotions, managed the roster and Roll calls, debated rule changes, and generally made most of the decisions regarding the cavalry. These three people had the ‘votes’ and authority in all cavalry matters.

The Bealdorhealand, Aerest Paethfindian and Feldmarshals would sometimes be invited in to be a part of the council debate as advisors. They could join in with discussions and offer advice, speaking up for their respective ‘soldiers’ and generally informing the Marshals on specialist subjects or on the general opinion of the rest of the cavalry. However they did not get a vote in final decisions unless an exception was made by the Marshals and they had no authority to control the council.

The HCMA was an odd one. They technically sat outside the cavalry hierarchy with the same authority as the Marshals, however they did not exercise this authority unless they were invited to by the Marshals (or very rarely, the rulers/admins). They could vote in the council if the cavalry was lacking a Marshal or there were only two active Marshals. In the event that there was ever indecision or unresolved dispute between the Marshals, the HCMA would often step in to decide a tie or mediate. The HCMA was in some ways a ‘back-up’ Marshal; they could temporarily take over for an absent Marshal, but must step away once the position was filled again.

The HCMA should be someone trustworthy, reasonable and diplomatic, whose priority is the good of the cavalry rather their own authority or agenda. For this reason, the rank is often reserved for the most part only for ex-First Marshals.

Due to the fact most Marshals work together very well, coupled with the fact First Marshals often suffer burnout when they retire and go inactive, HCMAs are rarely active in this role and these days it is often simply treated as an honourary position.

However, many of the issues previously encountered with inactive/problematic Marshals arguably could have been avoided with better use of HCMAs, or in their absence, a ruler or admin.

Thanks to their experience, a HCMA could often foresee issues before they happened or counsel against re-making the mistakes of the past.

[Shivased]

@Rowena Ellenweorc No biggie. Edit if you want, but otherwise everyone gets a beginning prompt saying who they are paired with and where they start....so you'll have another IC 'beginning' to do anyway

[Rowena Ellenweorc]

Meh, I'll just leave it... It was pretty non descript anyway.

[Allacan ob Burzum]

I don't see why there has to be a time limit on Aerest or Bealdorhaelend and whatnot.

I think the concern is that when people hold them indefinitely, there is nowhere for a Paethfindian or Healand to progress to, and it can be demoralising when you don’t have anything to aim for. I’m sure you enjoy Bealdorhealand now, but I’m also sure you can remember a time when you coveted a post but someone who’d had it a while already (possibly me?!) wouldn’t budge the hell out of the way.

I do however agree that there is no need to set a fixed time limit or ‘term’ for ranks others than Marshal.

Additionally, regularly rotating Marshals through election will likely result in a shift in the roster anyway as people leave/join the Marshal team, and it is likely Marshals will want to encourage a similar rotation of other senior roles and can do so diplomatically when they feel it is appropriate or when there is interest in a role, so this issue may actually be one that solves itself.

Too many times have Marshals held the ranks of BH or AP etc. It was fine.

To my knowledge, Marshals have rarely held a second rank in the cavalry as Bealdorhealand or Aerest Paethfindian, except on the later days of old plaza and currently when numbers are lower and normally only because there is literally no-one else.

I might have held Bealdorhealand while Marshal for a while because similar to Rowena, we had literally no healands I also think one other troublesome rider (the one who refused to step down as Marshal when asked) might similarly have clung to a secondary rank. Generally though, Marshals are expected to drop their second rank as soon as another suitably trained person becomes available.

That said, I do think given the impending elections that no-one will be expect Rowena to give up her Bealdorhealand rank just yet, in case she opts not to stand for election or isn’t elected as Marshal.

Besides, at this point in time, we don't have enough people to NOT double up. More than likely our higher ranks are going to have a lower rank title simply because we need those ranks.

Including current trainees (and not including a couple of people who have said in here that they might return but haven’t initiated that yet) we currently have 12 people in the cavalry, which would mean 24 characters if everyone had two. Excluding Dryhtgumas and Sperewigends, there are only 15 positions of rank in the cavalry, and if we leave out the arguably non-essential ranks of Feldmarshal and Aethelwigend, that drops again down to only 9 special ranks.

If we allow only one Paethfindian and Healand per Eored plus their respective commanders, the healand and paethfindian ranks are limited and very often coveted; there are only 4 of each in the entire cavalry. I recall the days of having to wait months for a vacancy before I could even apply for either. We also have an excellent healand in Amadhrill who might be interested in trying her hand at Bealdorhealand, myself with Healand training who might be interested in taking the rank of Healand after the elections, and at least five trainees who might similarly want to specialise in healing.

I am grateful that you seek to appreciate that Esme is a secondary character. I’m very also grateful you have clarified that Esme is a ‘filler’ Healand who would retire if necessary to free up one of the Healand. It would appear a little unfair if you were able to keep playing as 50% of the entire cavalry’s Healand contingent (especially if you are also a Marshal) when others might be interested in that role. My concern is that sometimes people don’t feel comfortable enquiring for a role if there is a name on the roster, even if it said something like ‘filler’, in case the person already there doesn’t want to give up the role.

I appreciate that deciding which of your NPCs/ranks you want to keep and which you are willing definitely has to wait until after an election so you know what all your choice are.

However, I think that whatever the result of the elections, I imagine any Marshal team will ask you to only hold one of the Healand positions, regardless of the character you play, so that others can rise the ranks and have a chance at those coveted spots. If Rowena stays Marshal then I imagine Esme can stay Healand and someone new can then have their chance at Bealdorhealand. If Rowena steps down as Marshal, then she can remain Bealdorhealand and Esma may have to step away. I only say this so you have a chance to think about your choices and prepare yourself, because I don’t think it would be fair to keep both the Healand posts now the cavalry is filling up.

I do not want to be a Marshal!

I have already been approached by at least one person asking whether I would be putting my name forward as a Marshal in the impending elections, and I figured I would share the answer here for everyone to see.

I currently have no desire to take up the rank of cavalry Marshal, for a number of reasons;-

- There are better people than I who are far more than deserving and worthy of the role. I have no enthusiasm for being a commander again right now and in fact am enjoying the liberty of reconnecting with old cavalry colleagues as comrades rather than commander. I am much more excited to see a new chapter of the cavalry unfold under other people’s leadership.

- Even if I put my name forward just to give people options, I feel it would be dishonest of me to pretend I was interested and allow people to vote for me in this election when I know that, first chance I get, I would likely be stepping out of the role so someone else can take my place and only causing us to repeat the process all over again.

- Things may change in the future, but at the moment I am happy being a lower rank and letting other people make the decisions and do all the hard work. I had a great innings as a Marshal and don’t feel like I need a second chance.

- I feel like I can really serve the cavalry best right now in my role as HCMA, especially advising and being a neutral mediator, and especially if we are potentially about to get a whole new Marshal’s team. I think the cavalry really needs an active, neutral HCMA to help mediate change, and I cannot be that if I am a Marshal.

- I am thoroughly enjoying new dubious-morals Allacan and I don’t think the cavalry leader should be someone with such a dark twist or questionable character. (@Rowena Ellenweorc I confess to nothing! )

With that in mind, and considering the mediation role a HCMA normally takes in such matters:-

Beginning the Election

I have checked through the thread in details, and every current full cavalry member (7 in total) has approved of the idea of an election, 2 of our current 5 trainees have also posted in support, along with 4 ex-cavalry members and 1 admin. No-one appears to dislike the idea. I think @Shivased is right that the sooner we initiate the elections the better. Therefore...

I am happy to take on the responsibility of facilitating a fair and proper election from a neutral position of HCMA.

@Shivased has mentioned that she has a lot on her plate and has recently opened a cavalry RPG (which I personally think should continue to run regardless of election results, but that’s another topic) so she likely doesn’t need this additional pressure. I have already spoken to her privately to check she is happy for me to take this responsibility off her shoulders and she has agreed, although I will of course allow her the opportunity to confirm that here before actually beginning the election process.

@Winddancer has already offered to assist as an admin by collating votes so that even I will not know who voted for what, but she will need help managing the nominations. She will also need someone familiar with members of Rohan and the cavalry to double-check that no-one is cheating and we don’t have people posing as cavalry to try and swing the votes.

Finally, I take my duty a HCMA very seriously in that I see it as my duty not to take sides but instead put the good of the whole cavalry first. I’d like to think I could be trusted with this task. At least I hope so (sure my character’s allegiances are dubious, but I am cavalry through and through).

Moving forward

A separate thread will be opened shortly for people to make their nominations and reasons why they think particular people would make a good Marshal. Nominations will be open for at least a week to give everyone a chance to see it and consider if they want to stand.

In the meantime, the following topics of debate are yet to be agreed upon, and I recommend that while nominations are being gathered we could focus on one topic at a time to try and keep this thread a bit more manageable and less manic (68 replies in just over 4 days has to be a NuPlaza record!)

1) Who should be eligible to vote, and how many votes per person? 2? 3? Cavalry members obviously. Cavalry trainees as well? What about ex-cavalry; can they all vote even if they have no intention to return, or ply if they have expressed an interest to come back (and how would we know the difference? And what about non-Cavalry Rohir, who share a kingdom with the cavalry and are often impacted by cavalry events?
IF PEOPLE DON’T MIND LIMITING DISCUSSION TO THIS FIRST QUESTION WE MIGHT REACH A DECISION QUICKER AND AVOID THE THREAD BECOMING IMPOSSIBLE TO FOLLOW

2) How long a term should we be suggesting Marshals hold the position for? Should there be any adjustment to this if more than one new Marshal team gets voted in during these elections (so we don’t have them all step down at once) and if so, how?

3) How do you think the cavalry Marshals team could best deal with issues of conflict or disagreement between them if these crop up in the future? Should Marshal and/or other cavalry members be able to initiate an early election? Do we want to return to the old Cavalry Council where Marshals, HCMA, Bealdorhealand and Aerest all could mediate/advise? Should we be leaving this to the discretion of the Marshals, with the aid of the admins if necessary?

[Rowena Ellenweorc]

I say we focus on the first question so we can get the Marshals in place. Then the rest can fall in line after the positions are filled. And as for my answer to the question, I say if your name is on the roster, you can vote.

And I do see what you mean by Esme... So I guess lets remove her from the chart and just keep her as the filler assistant that isn't on the official roster so that people don't think that place is filled, especially since I'd rather have Audley on the roster than Esme, since he's actually a developed character and Esme isn't. (Hell, I don't even have an appearance for her! Except she's older)

And of course you confess to nothing @Allafyrefleorhtlig why would you?

As for Marshaldom -- let me explain my position, since Allacan explained hers. I had both Bealdorhaelend and Marshal thrust upon me on old plaza, and I swore an oath of fealty when I became ruler that I would never abandon my cohorts Shivased and Dragon-helm as long as they were on plaza, and that extended to Cavalry. So when DH stepped down as Marshal, obviously I took his place as the last remaining Westmarker, after already taking over Bealdorhaelend from Widfara as the last remaining Haelend. I had essentially been acting as Westmark Marshal for a long time because DH had been overexerted, ruling for six years with no reprieve. Shiva and I had unceremoniously been kicked from our positions as rulers so he was alone, and we felt terrible for him. Thus my oath was born. SO I am here for the long haul. My duty is to Rohan and to well now just Shiva since DH is gone. I do not do either Bealdorhaelend or Marshal for the power, but out of duty. If I have to choose however, I will forever choose Bealdorhaelend. My heart belongs in healing the people of Rohan, not leading. But I go where I am needed. Call me crazy, but I swore an oath of fealty to Rohan and to my friends, and I don't intend to break that oath.

[Dimcairien Luiniel]

@Rowena Ellenweorc Just for the sake of clarification, I assume you mean one vote per person/eligible Plaza member, not per character on the Roster?

[Rowena Ellenweorc]

@Dimcairien Luiniel correct

[Shivased]

I am fully willing to let @Allafyrefleorhtlig open and facilitate elections.

We discussed it, and it is a good idea. While I won't have a lot on my plate for more than a few days, it isa busy weekend for me and I'm not going to be around a whole lot until Monday. So, in the interest of getting things going as soon as possible, I happily defer to someone who has more time and, more importantly, who is in a rather neutral position and has no interest in being a marshal.

[Amadhrill]

Wow, that was a long one.

I think we should have one vote per plaza member with a character in the cavalry, trainees and marshals, all have one vote no matter.

I'll read through this again later and see if there are other things that I want to chime in on.

edit I will do my best to keep up with the cavalry RP, but I am currently on sunmer vacation with my family for another week or two (we haven't made set plans because covid-19...), so I might get some time and energy to use in the RP, but if I can't keep up, its because I am on vacation.

[Elvheimdros]

Who? As a former Cavalry member with no real intention of re-joining, I would not be comfortable being given a vote, and I can't imagine a situation where I was going to come back to the Cavalry in which I'd be happy with letting non-members vote. However, I do think that whenever the vote is held, everyone who has committed to the Cavalry at that point should get to vote.

Voting? The method that seems obvious to me is that each person voting should get as many votes as there are open positions. If I've read the thread correctly, there's only one Marshal still required to be chosen right now, so each person voting would only get one vote, and if there's a tie Shivased and Rowena can figure out the tie-breaking with whom they'd rather have. I don't think with the Cav in it's current state it makes sense to try to pick all new marshals unless Rowena or Shivased want to step down.

One further note: since the Cavalry is so small right now, rather than doing nominations and then a vote, my guess is it would be simpler to just find out who doesn't want the job, and then pick from everybody who's left. (In the future it might be voting from each éored to replace a marshal if the Cavalry's at a decent size.

(I don't remember the HCMA thing at all - I don't know whether that's from after I was active or if my memory's just bad.)

[Thalionwen Hunigfolm]

I don't have much skin in this game as I'm still on the fence re: rejoining the Cavalry or not, but as a former member I disagree with Elvh, and think there should be an open vote for *all* Marshal positions, as a lot of the current Cav roster have been Marshals or held high ranks in the past. It's not particularly equitable or democratic, under the current circumstances, to just fill the roles with whoever got here first, at least in my opinion.

Which isn't to say Shiva and Rowena aren't doing a bang up job, as they are, I just think in the spirit of NuPlaza a vote is in order :)

[Allacan ob Burzum]

Who?
Voting? The method that seems obvious to me is that each person voting should get as many votes as there are open positions. If I've read the thread correctly, there's only one Marshal still required to be chosen right now, so each person voting would only get one vote, and if there's a tie Shivased and Rowena can figure out the tie-breaking with whom they'd rather have. I don't think with the Cav in it's current state it makes sense to try to pick all new marshals unless Rowena or Shivased want to step down.

@Elvheimdros Actually I read the thread thoroughly yesterday and the general consensus is that all three Marshal position are up for election this time around and that is what will shortly be happening.

Obviously I’m future, nominations will be done as and when a Marshal position becomes available so your suggest of one vote per person seems sensible in that situation, where only one position is being voted on.

The question is how many votes should be get if we are voting for three Marshals at once?

Having looked through the roster of potential candidates I anticipate at least four names being out forward, possibly more, which is why a single vote per person may not work (we could end up with one vote each and no clear winner)

This thread had gone so fast the last few day’s and covered so many disparate topics I can appreciate why you might have been confused or struggled to read it all. It’s one reason I have tried to focus the discussion on one question at a time; I hope my explanation helped

[Elvheimdros]

I wasn't sure if voting for three was a consensus or an assumption. If it's a vote for three, then I'd say each voter picks three and the ones with the highest totals would be appointed, with any requisite tie-breaking done... somehow.

[Shivased]

@Elvheimdros We are doing an election for ALL marshal positions. If that means Rowena and I are no longer marshals, I don't see a problem with that. As has been said, half the returning Cavalry is former marshals or high-ranking positions. Rowena and I were marshals when the plaza disappeared, but that doesn't mean we should automatically get a pass to be marshals now. We got things going again, and now it's best to do the diplomatic thing and let the members decide.

I say two votes per person. 1st and 2nd choice. That would help avoid a situation where a variety of people have 1 vote each, and no clear winners emerge. We could give 2 points to first choice, 1 point for second, or whatever. Similar to how the Admin elections ran.

As for who can vote - I say current serving Cavalry and trainees. Most ex-cavalry have indicated they have no desire to return, so I feel like some people might have concerns with them voting about the Cavalry's future if they have no vested interest in it. It seems that the fair thing for the Cavalry is give the say to those who will be directly affected by who the new marshals are - current members and trainees.

[Lail]

As for who can vote - I say current serving Cavalry and trainees. Most ex-cavalry have indicated they have no desire to return, so I feel like some people might have concerns with them voting about the Cavalry's future if they have no vested interest in it. It seems that the fair thing for the Cavalry is give the say to those who will be directly affected by who the new marshals are - current members and trainees.

I'm not sure if this really adds anything, but offering my slight outsider perspective. As a retired member and someone now wearing a tree, I definitely don't feel I or other retirees should vote. I agree with you 100%, Shiva. I am very happy to see an open discussion of an election happening! I think its a great idea for this unprecedented situation we find ourselves in.

[Eléowyn]

Also ex-cav here, not planning to return, and here's my two cents' worth regarding voting: I agree voting should be members who are currently involved. I don't think I would vote even if I were given the opportunity. Having said that, I don't think just because some of us are retired doesn't mean we aren't interested and don't want the cavalry to succeed. Quite the opposite, I have a deep love for Rohan in general and the cavalry, in particular, and really wish for its success.

With regard to HCMA, if my memory is correct (and it often is not these days!), the HCMA was created as a position of honor when Remy, who was instrumental in getting the cavalry off the ground in the first place, retired (i.e., left Plaza). For the most part, he was not around to do anything with the title, other than a brief stint sometime around 2004-2006 (can't recall, just remember it was when I was a ruler). After that, like Elvh, I have little or no memory of who held the title or how it was used.

I have some other thoughts I'd like to add, again in the spirit of hoping the cavalry to succeed, but I'll save them for later, so as not to derail the voting discussion.

[Allacan ob Burzum]

In the event of a tie

If we allow more than one vote per person, but candidates can use one of their votes to vote for themselves (?) I have a suggestion for what to do in a tie.

Because I am not standing and will therefore not be voting for myself, and am supposed to be as neutral a party as possible while co-ordinating the process as HCMA, then maybe I can vote in two stages;

1) I have one vote for my personal preference among the candidates, which I make as a hum-drum cavalry member at the same time as everyone else.

2) In the event of a tie, I review all the people who are tied and use my second vote to decide the tie based on what I think is best for the cavalry as HCMA.

This means that if there is not a tie, everyone else gets two votes but I only get one, which I am ok with. My second vote is held in reserve in case it is needed to decide a tie and ensure we have three marshals and not four

How does that sound?

[Elarith]

Quick thoughts:

Voting rights - Cavalry members including trainees. We have to draw the line somewhere.

3 posts so 3 votes, graded 1st choice, 2nd choice, 3rd choice and so weighted that way.

In the hopefully unlikely event of a tie - @Allafyrefleorhtlig deploys an extra vote effectively like a Rohirric Shirley Ballas on ‘Strictly’, but with fewer sequins, possibly.

[Taethowen]

Re: the HCMA discussion. I do also remember (like @Eléowyn and @Elvheimdros) it being a more honorary rank than any position of responsibility. Remy was the only Marshal that had even retired from the 1st Marshal at the time I first joined the Cav, IIRC. This would have been... late 2003. However, I think it's more than reasonable for the position to have evolved over time, and that now we can utilize the experience of active HCMA's. And it is a handy tool to have for a tie-breaker with the proposed vote.

On Voting Rights:

Since it looks like the consensus is that retired Cav should not vote, and trainees should, what criteria should be in place for said trainees? Do we want to allow trainees to vote who are signed up before the nominations end, as long as they've begun the training process?

[Allacan ob Burzum]

Do we want to allow trainees to vote who are signed up before the nominations end, as long as they've begun the training process?

The nominations thread will be going up today, and it is not clear how long nominations will be open for.

This is because although we are setting a time limit, there are only 6 potential candidates and it is entirely possible that all 6 will either be nominated (or some may say they are not interested in being Marshal) and as such, the nominations process could be very quick indeed.

If we want to set a moment for when new trainees cannot vote (so we do not have a deluge of people signing up as a trainee just to vote, then going AWOL) I would recommend letting trainees who have initiated their training at the time the nomination thread opens is a better moment in time than when it closes.

[Allacan ob Burzum]

Firstly, let me start by saying on behalf of everyone thank you to @Shivased and @Rowena Ellenweorc for all their efforts in re-starting the cavalry, and being open to their rank being placed up for election, along with their willingness to respect the will of the cavalry members in the event that they are not elected. You are both amazing and we love you

Additionally, let me say a mahoosive thank-you to @Winddancer for offering her assistance with all this.

So, without any further ado...

THE ELECTION THREAD IS OPEN
(clicky clicky here for linky)

Windy and I will be co-ordinating the election and the thread is currently limited to nominations only for now.

Please read the Election Thread opening post though carefully before posting there or making your nomination, and keep your eyes open for future updates. Discussions can continue in here so that we can hopefully keep that thread tidy and easy to digest for people who don't have time to read through all the posts in Command Tent.

To be safe, I have also taken a screen-grab of the current Cavalry Roster in case the decision is made to only allow votes from current cavalry members and trainees who had already engaged in training before the nominations opened.

Nominations will close midnight PST on Saturday 18th July (which is 3am on Sunday 19th July EST, or 8am on Sunday 19th July for BST) OR once every valid candidate has been nominated or has stated they do not wish to be a candidate; whichever comes first.

[Fairy Nuff]

As a current trainee, I would just like to contribute by saying I think trainees should be able to vote, as although we don't have loads of cavalry experience, by being able to contribute to shaping the cavalry of the future, we are not only showing our current interest and commitment, but hopefully ensuring that commitment continues for a long time.

I think terms should be 1 year, with the option to stand again at the end of the term, but also the option to stand down if things change in that year and you can no longer commit to the role. 1 year will give stability and allow phased retirement where needed, but I think also 1 year is a big commitment for a NuPlaza that has only existed for 2 months so far, after all, a year ago none of us thought we would be here, did we?

My two pennies :)

[Amadhrill]

So first of all, as @Allafyrefleorhtlig has already said: @Shivased and @Rowena Ellenweorc , you guys have done a massive job so far and to so gracefully offer up your parts as marshals is both admirable, impressive, and speak for itself in your dedication to the cavalry! Thank you for your hard work and dedication so far!

Ad voting
I think all trainees who have started their training/actively participate in the current cavalry rp before the vote ends and manages to send in their vote in time should be able to vote. I hardly believe anyone will bother to begin cavalry training and vote only to stop as voting is over because they got someone in as a marshal, so I say we trust people and let trainees who manage to vote in time (and have started training) also vote. Another reason is that someone might stumble upon the cavalry and want to become active even after the nomination has ended, and I think it would be a shame that in this case a person cant vote because we drew the line too early...

[Aethelu]

Just going to sneak in here with a quick question

Thanks @Shivased for the excellent Cavalry training, I really appreciate your patience while I tried to muddle through it all

Should I be posting in the Oath thread and the Dragon Room now or would it be better to wait until after the current RP event is over? I don't want to be causing confusion by posting all over the place when people are trying to run different things.

[Shivased]

@Aethelu you can do that now, it's fine. It won't affect anything. Just RP as being a dryhtguma fresh from training in the RP or something. As for the Dragon Room, it's always chaos in there, so no biggie

[Rowena Ellenweorc]

@Shivased Are we supposed in the colors you posted for our teams or our Eored colors?

[Shivased]

@Rowena Ellenweorc Nope. I was just bored with black and got creative.

[Rowena Ellenweorc]

Okay cause I REALLY am attached to my red, believe it or not.

[Rowena Ellenweorc]

@Shivased another question -- how many socks?

[Shivased]

@Rowena Ellenweorc Ummm.....a pair? Let's go with one pair.

[Gwai]

@Shivased how long IC does the RP last (assuming we're not permanently lost haha). Hours, days, a week...?

Edit: And does the rowboat have oars attached, or is it *just* the boat?

[Dimcairien Luiniel]

@Amadhrill Hey, I think we're paired together (my Rohir character is Éomund) for the Cavalry RP event. Are you on discord (or another site?) for planning/cooperating or do you want to do all planning/character teamwork IC?

[Amadhrill]

@Dimcairien Luiniel I haven't added discord yet, but was thinking we could do it all IC? If you need it, you can add me on facebook messenger if you use it?

[Shivased]

@Gwai Just the boat. No oars. Also In my head the RP lasts a few days. Most people are on foot, so finding the camp would take more than a few hours. I'm thinking 2-3 days. I plan on putting time changes in my updates, like "as dusk falls the path becomes harder to see. Might be a good time to make camp." and so on.