Hear Ye! Hear ye! ALL please! Your thoughts are needed!

[Winddancer]

Alright my lovelies, lets have a get to know you chitchat! :D I promise it won't be used against you..

So, I havent even brought this up with my fellow admins, but I basically just wanted to have an open chat with you guys and see where everyone is at. Please be specific and give co-ordinates.. anyways um, I was chatting with He who shall not be named, but who is now a troll or an orc. Something.

A lot of new people have joined (much love to you! <3 Loving the activity, please stay gold! <3 ) and it occured to me they might not know how the elections work and then it occured to me, DO the elections work? But being who I am, I feel its important for me to know what is important to you so that I can do the best job possible. Does that make any sense?

Now I wasn't just campaigning when I said I want to have the members be a part of as much as humanly (or any other race) possible. But for that to be the case, well then you me dears will have to get a lil vocal! Cause try as I might, I just cant frigging get this Palantir to work..

So, lets talk about everything! Status quo, wants, desires, issues, problems, potential problems. Anything and everything! Just not stamps.. geesus..

If actual questions help, rather than you just spilling your guts (though do love the sight of those..) then here are a few to get you going. Feel free to add more or not answer some, whichever suits you.

Just please keep in mind this is just a chat between you and me and the whole plaza :P I am just genuinely curious as to where people are at and what they are hoping to see and what they find an issue, if any. Cause who knows, perhaps there is an easy fix! I like stapling stuff together!

Is there something you think should be changed? (No.. no more kingdoms. He who shall not be named, who might be a troll, has spoken)
Do you have a suggestion as to how you would pick admins come this summer?
Should we stick with voting? (If you dont know how we did it before, the vote threads are still in this forum)
If we stick with voting do you think the way it is done now is fair? Do you have a suggestion as to how it could be more fair if no?
Do you know what being an admin involves now? Do you know what we actually do? (compared to what admins on OP did)
Do you have any expectations for the admins?
Are they being met?
If not how can we improve?
Do you think the amount of admins is sufficient? (Seeing as we just went from 5 to 3)
What would you like to see more of? (Keep in mind with this one, that YOU are in charge of your own fun and it isn't up to the admins to make new RPs and such, feel free to make whatever you want! I will never stop loving this part.. remember when we had to ASK and WAIT and sometimes get declined??)

[By the way, this isnt asking for an admin bashing. I am asking because I honestly want to know how you guys feel and whether there is something more we can do to make this place thrive. So please be honest, but respectful <3 And please, just see it as a lil heart to heart from your nosy admin and lets have a nice lil chat :)

So, please speak up, dont make me get out my whip! I promise we won't bite :)

[Pele Alarion]

You are aware that this requires a lot of serious thinking, Windy? Right? In fact, I have not paid much attention to quite a few of those questions, but will take some time to consider and see if there's anything worthwhile I can contribute.

[Winddancer]

Take all the time you need! You have 5 mins. J/King! :P Please do take time to think about it, just maybe answer before next election though.. :P

[Aikári Salmarinian]

My two cents in the matter:

Is there something you think should be changed? Yes, the ability to choose you want points or not, like me. And add things like location and birthday in our profiles. It is very summier what you can display now. Yes, turned on we can delete our posts. That would be fabulous.
Do you have a suggestion as to how you would pick admins come this summer? How it was done on Plaza 1.0, but I guess there are too few people around for that system.
Should we stick with voting? I don't know really. This way leans much to who I favour most, get my vote. It is not transparant or unbiased. Besides nearly all of us were once in some kind of moderator or adminstrator position before. We have the experience in home to be admin or mod.
If we stick with voting do you think the way it is done now is fair? I haven't participated in it, because of the anonimity aspect that is not there.
Do you have a suggestion as to how it could be more fair if no? No, there is no system that is more fairer than any other. There are always points that are favoured and other points that are not.
Do you know what being an admin involves now? Oh yeah, I do.
Do you know what we actually do? Likewise.
Do you have any expectations for the admins? No. As they are all in a sort of backseat, we are all a bit moderators ourselves. We are in charge of our own fun.
Are they being met? N/A
If not how can we improve? N/A
Do you think the amount of admins is sufficient? Five was a better number, I feel. But I understand the reduction.
What would you like to see more of? Nothing really. I find it rather unnecessary to start threads with same history roleplay topics in other areas. The old Imladris Convention was enough to set out the rules on a site like this. Keep the topics to Lotr and Tolkien related and the Cottage for personal works, and leave everything else in another place. And have oome for any other form of chitchat, Legolas loveletters ans newbie stuff. And don't try to search for 21st century morals in books, that were written a hundred years or more earlier. Those were totally other times, with other thoughts and ideals of people that lived and thrived back then. Enjoying Tolkien works for me the best with an objective state of mind, in which I leave all subjectives ideals and morals outside the story, and submerge myself in a world where Aikári is a part of.
Anything else? The system to ask, wait and get approval or denial was never that bad at all. It kept a certain quality and order in check, which I always appreciated.

[The Good Hunter]

Is there something you think should be changed? (No.. no more kingdoms. He who shall not be named, who might be a troll, has spoken) Only thing I think I might change from the current format is upping the point threshold from 100 characters to 500 or something to eliminate spamming OOC threads with useless prattle that's just to get points from and will engender more thoughtful RP responses than the bare minimum as fast as it can be churned out

Do you have a suggestion as to how you would pick admins come this summer? I don't want have an "activity stipulation" to adminship because that's not always entirely fair, but I do think it's important that admins are present on the Plaza more than once or twice a month (being around on Discord doesn't really mean anything) in case something happens that requires their attention. Also, what if we imposed some sort of term limits? No more than two consecutive terms so we embrace the diversity of our membership more? And by two consecutive terms, I mean two terms as an admin, one or more off, then try again (we don't have enough members to do it elsewise)

Should we stick with voting? (If you dont know how we did it before, the vote threads are still in this forum) I think so, it's proven to work thus far and if the beloved cave troll continues to volunteer his time to run and tabulate the elections I see no issue with the current format

If we stick with voting do you think the way it is done now is fair? Do you have a suggestion as to how it could be more fair if no? Even with the small amount of people we have I think it works, especially if we implement the above term limits

Do you know what being an admin involves now? Do you know what we actually do? (compared to what admins on OP did) trib, trib, trib, trib, trib, trib, trib, a little more trib before lunch, settle the occasional dispute, enforce the DEI statement, trib, trib, trib, trib, and one final trib before going off to bed

Do you have any expectations for the admins? to be present on more than just Discord or other off-Plaza places, to enforce the DEI when it's violated, and to give me all the tribs

Are they being met? Sometimes, it feels like being present on Discord is conflated and combined with being around on the Plaza, and they aren't the same; an admin's presence is needed on the site they admin not somewhere else, but for the most part, there's always at least one admin here doing her job to make sure things don't break

If not how can we improve? Show up and engage, encourage participation in all areas of the Plaza, enforce the DEI where it's needed, participate where you say you're going to participate

Do you think the amount of admins is sufficient? (Seeing as we just went from 5 to 3) I think in the past few weeks it's been shown to be more than sufficient; hell, we could go down to two (as long as they were active) and I don't think things would be interrupted or slowed at all

What would you like to see more of? I've harped on it a lot, but I'd love to see more admin activity, leading by example and trying new things like contests or competitions or new games

[Chrysophylax Dives]

I was going to post simply to say that I have no complaints. I'll add: when the new plaza got going I rather missed the lore admins of the old plaza, but i've come round to the idea that lore is better without them (not that lore is that great, yet...)

But on these two:

Also, what if we imposed some sort of term limits? No more than two consecutive terms so we embrace the diversity of our membership more? And by two consecutive terms, I mean two terms as an admin, one or more off, then try again (we don't have enough members to do it elsewise)

Sometimes, it feels like being present on Discord is conflated and combined with being around on the Plaza, and they aren't the same; an admin's presence is needed on the site they admin not somewhere else, but for the most part, there's always at least one admin here doing her job to make sure things don't break

On the term limit, I'm not sure. I have little idea what admin work involves, am happy to leave it to others, but am aware that who is doing the work matters quite a lot (even in my little part of the plaza). When the admins are deeply committed and put in the time then things work better, and i'd be loathe to set a term limit on such hard work and commitment.

But my one complaint from interaction with admins is precisely this Discord stuff. I really don't care that a problem 'is being sorted out on Discord' - I don't hang out on discord, i hang out here! I've sometimes had the feeling that the plaza is so slow because most of the old members actually prefer engaging on discord.

[Zôrzimril]

Having been a RAM on both OP and here, I will chime in and offer my perspective, which is that the day-to-day of adminning is very much a thankless job. Even with commensurate enthusiasm for writing, running games, debating lore, PAMming, sharing art, or what have you, the thanklessness of the job (particularly when it comes to dealing with drama - which always pops up, no matter how smoothly things appear to be going on-site) almost always leads to burnout in some form. I feel like I’ve seen a lot of ways - on OP and here - that burnout can affect once-enthusiastic members.

For some, burnout means disappearing for weeks or months - or even, in the case of OP, years at a time. For others, it means logging on regularly but not posting anything meaningful, thereby not contributing to the community. (I fully own that this one applied to me last term, which is a big reason why I chose not to run in December’s election. I knew I wasn’t doing what I would want an admin to do.) For others, it means procrastinating on every decision and not getting anything done. And for some, it means clinging to power for months or years on end despite having little left to offer. (“Power” being a more relevant concept on OP - here, the perceived power of adminning comes mostly from the icons.)

To be clear, much of the above applies mainly to OP admins, but I do think it is still relevant for us to consider now as our community sticks around and continues to grow (albeit slowly). All that said, here’s what I wish would change about Plaza adminning, both old-school and new:

- That those who have burned out or simply do not have the time to contribute to the community in a visible way would have the self-awareness and humility to step down or not seek re-election. It is no bad thing to have important life priorities outside of the Plaza!
- That we removed as much as possible the notion that there is any “power” or glory in adminning. It is actually a deeply draining task, and one which I’m frankly happy to have a break from right now. Those who take it on should do so with full knowledge that there is nothing to be gained from it personally. It is about making the community better.
- That we *all*, as members, would help make the job of adminning easier by communicating civilly with each other, rather than relying on the admin team to serve as proxies for drama

I think elections are still better than the OP alternative of incumbent admins appointing new admins, and I think term limits that enforced people taking a break would likely be a good thing for the sustainability of our membership. Given how small the site is, I think we could easily get by with 2 admins + our cave troll overlord. The only thing about term limits is that we would need to think carefully about making sure there is a well-rounded pool of candidates each election.

[Romeran]

I only recently found the new plaza so take my opinions with a grain of salt.

Is there something you think should be changed? Nothing that I can think of.

Should we stick with voting? Assuming the candidates are qualified I think this is a reasonable approach. Anything which could impact the pool of candidates should be considered carefully. For example, while I understand the idea behind term limits, it's not like the candidate pool is huge and the job is quite thankless, if we have people who are doing well and the community is behind them I don't think we should necessarily artificially impose limits.

If we stick with voting do you think the way it is done now is fair? Do you have a suggestion as to how it could be more fair if no? The only recommendation would be to make the voting/nomination anonymous using some website or something. It might encourage more people to vote or nominate. You'd want to make sure they were people from the plaza in some way, of course, which may be a challenge.

Do you know what being an admin involves now? Do you know what we actually do? Uh yeah sure totally.

Do you have any expectations for the admins? Help keep conflict low, keep threads in their right places, help people do things which they can't (like changing thread names). Pretty thankless stuff basically. Giving out trib is a plus.

Are they being met? As far as I can tell, which means yes.

If not how can we improve? N/A

Do you think the amount of admins is sufficient? Since so much of the admin work is behind the scenes and I am not/have not been an admin it's tough to say whether or not the current admin load is too much for three.

What would you like to see more of? You are all doing great as far as I'm concerned.

[Lail]

Yes to absolutely continue elections! Without Narv to facilitate (as far as I understand from his post in December), if the current admins are going to run it, it would be great to find a way to make it more anonymous so the team aren’t seeing who is voting for whom, which might make people on both ends uncomfortable.

I stand by what I said before about admin activity. I don’t care. I don’t care about it on-site or on Discord as long as they’re appearing every now and then on-site and stuff is getting done. I actually think it is a good thing to have one admin on the team who is a step removed from the members (perhaps someone less “involved” with RP and/or less personally familiar with individual members and such) because I think it helps provide a balanced, calm, less biased, more neutral voice on the team when issues arise.

I think 3 admins is good. It allows for tie-breaking on decisions and avoids 2 people with too-similar opinions and mindsets from running the show and missing alternative viewpoints. It also allows team members to take a healthy break sometimes without leaving one person stuck without all the work, pressure and responsibility. However, only you 3 can actually speak to how it’s going and compare to how it went with 5.

I don't think it's a bad idea to explain what all is involved in the job for those who don't know and potential future nominees. Some of the tasks are obvious (tribbing, locking threads) and some less so (keeping (unfortunately inevitable) drama off the site and behind the scenes). In my experience, the latter were the most demanding and draining task involved, but also ones I would say are much more important.

I’m not sure about term limits. I think turnover is beneficial to bring fresh perspectives and energy to the team but I also think there is value in experience. Like so much of this, it’s all about finding balance.

Ultimately, I believe it is up to all of the members (members includes admins) to cultivate the kind of community we want, to be respectful and kind to one another and to make this a safe place where people feel welcome and want to be.

Burning question-- what is this cute new star icon I keep seeing?!


NPF edit: the star has succeeded the fairy as a marker of my presence

[Isolde Alarion]

*throws in 2 cents*
Question 1: Can’t think of anything
Question 2: Yes
Question 3: As fair as it can be I suppose.
Question 4: Yes I do, you deserve more then you get…if I could hand out cookies I would.
QUESTION 5: Simply do as you said you would when you were voted . Do your best.
Question 6: I suppose so, we haven’t burned the place down yet so you must be good at putting out fires.
Question 7: Dunno at this moment.
Question 8: I suppose so.
Question 9: I miss pm’s..got spoiled there.

[Nessa Saelind]

Mornin' everyone

Just quickly sliding in here to answer 2 things I noticed (before I forget, because let's face it I am a Woman of a Certain Age™ )

@Sorceress - thank you for reminding me about the character limit for points. After the site was restored from the Blip Narv lowered the character limit for points from 200 to 100 (if memory serves me, Woman of a Certain Age™ here) so people (who care about such things) could get back their points faster. We'll need to up that again, it probably escaped our to do list. Thanks for the reminder

@Isolde Alarion - regarding the PM system: it was discussed at the beginning of the NuPlaza, I have a link somewhere, need to find it. Long story short the problem with PMs is in the GDPR rules and regulations rather than in the complexity of coding. So basically complex legislation behind the GDPR rules is the reason for not having PMs here. Hope this helps.

[Zôrzimril]

I don’t think the point threshold was ever raised from 100 to 200 characters… The only bump was from 50 to 100.

[Nessa Saelind]

I don’t think the point threshold was ever raised from 100 to 200 characters… The only bump was from 50 to 100.

Huh I think you might be right and I probably got the numbers mixed up. Me and numbers

Also read my previous post and I realised that I should have said that lowering the character limit was also Narv's way of saying thank you for being patient with us during the Blip and sorry for the post loss.

Note to self: don't write anything before coffee, you're not as awake as you think you are

[Boromir88]

Is there something you think should be changed? Not that I can think of. I know some people still might be disappointed by the slower activity from the OP days, but honestly this is more active and I'd say better members than other Tolkien and fan forums. I posted the Isildur thread here, and got some great replies from everyone here, learned a heck of a lot more about Isildur than I did going in. I posted the same thread on another Tolkien forum and the tired, grumpy members there just wanted to gripe about Peter Jackson getting Isildur wrong. The latter response just makes me say "why bother and waste my time here?" Where the response here made me think "Awesome. I'll post more here."

So, thank you for having good members and if the TV series is successful, I would expect more people to find there way here. Even though, overall forums aren't as frequently used as in their heyday.

Do you have a suggestion as to how you would pick admins come this summer? Nope. The current method of nominating and voting I think works well. I haven't been able to vote the last 2 times around, but that *should* change now that life and work are back to normal. And I didn't vote the last few times, not because I disapprove of the method, but just didn't feel right to pick admins when I haven't been around much.

Do you know what being an admin involves now? Do you know what we actually do? I think so. Spread shinies to members. Handle members who get out of line. Which doesn't seem to happen a lot, but when it happened most recently, an admin cleared out the drivel quickly. I was trying to read the posts, because I'm nosy, but @Winddancer was too fast for me!

Do you have any expectations for the admins? Are they being met? If not how can we improve? Continue being present and active during your term. I don't venture much into the Kingdoms besides joining some of the games. So not sure what admin presence is like there, but I feel like I see an admin online most of the time I'm also online.

Do you think the amount of admins is sufficient? Yep 3 seems right.

What would you like to see more of? Quizzes, which I've been meaning to email the admins, and keep forgetting. So I'll do it here, if you think it's time for some more HoK quizzes, I would be happy to lend a hand in writing questions.

[Winddancer]

Love you all long time! Thank you so much for all your feedback Keep it coming! Also want to add that, feedback isn't limited to this thread. I hope it was always clear that anyone could come to an admin and voice their concerns and whatnots. To me that is paramount, that admins are available for that.

I asked specifically if you knew what admins do here on the plaza as I think transparency is important. I do not want a repeat of OP where they would hide away in Vali and you would go bonkers trying to figure out what they were doing in there. We do have a private forum, though not called Vali lol but we barely use it. It is mostly used for How-to threads for new admins (or forgetful ones like me!) and storing stuff.

Basically all of you are right, those that answered. We tribute, give points when someone has done HoK (as that is not automated), lock/move/rename/delete threads and posts (though very rarely). All of that is easy peasy.
Well actually giving points is a bit finicky, it involves copying the name, placing it into a search bar, saying yes, finding the amount you want to give, submitting and then it has the gall to ask if you are seriously wanting to do this. I argue with it a lot and tell it that it is none of its damn business! :P

HoK is not super easy either, we get an email and in it is a link. Press the link, head to google forms and then have to select individual, then scroll to the bottom and find the one who took it, click that and then see how they fared. After that, back to the tribute thing as it is the same one. Then archive said email so we can easily see who has done what if that question ever arises.

Doing anything with posts is a bit silly too, especially if wanting to delete something without pointloss. You basically have to choose an option to move them and THEN choose delete as that wont take the point where a flat out delete will. And any delete with pointloss, as far as I know, is always 1 points, not 2. Don't even get me started on moving posts from one thread to another.. frigging timestamps..

But the hardest part (for me at least, can only speak for myself) is dealing with arguements and "drama". Of course no one likes it and neither do I. We are fortunate enough that it does not happen a lot, but it does happen and unfortunately it does scare some really good admins away, which breaks my heart. And being an "admin" it does require that you be diplomatic, fair and unbiased, but we are humans too, so yeah that part can be real tough and taxing.

Obviously I would love for the NuPlaza to just be able to run itself, everything automated and people just getting along perfectly so that there was no need for admins at all. There really is no real power connected to the icon now though. Pretty much every decision is brought to all the members and we choose in unison by votes/discussions. Our "power" lies in picking ATRs every 2 months..

From the getgo I have aimed for admins being "invisible", though it has not escaped my attention that when you are very active then you are anything but invisible as your icon will be EVERYWHERE But then my need for admins to just be invisible is my need and maybe not everyone elses, so hence the questions to see where everyone is at. Would be cool if there was a feature were I could revert to my normal rank for posting and just use the admin icon when I have to intervene in a thread that is getting out of hand. But then a lot of you say you would like active admins, so would it then seem like there arent any active ones if you cannot clearly see the icon? Also new members might find it difficult to figure that out and wouldn't know who to approach with an issue, so I guess there are pros and cons. Probably the biggest con is that it cant even be done

Anyways I am rambling and I want to hear from YOU guys!

@Boromir88 Sil was the one that spearheaded the HoK with whatshisface.. the treedude.. Mojo! Since I got back I honestly haven't thought of who is doing it now or if it is still Sil, worth finding out though, so will get back to you on that! :) And thanks for the offer of help

[Zôrzimril]

Also read my previous post and I realised that I should have said that lowering the character limit was also Narv's way of saying thank you for being patient with us during the Blip and sorry for the post loss.

We gave everyone a bonus for that. The bump from 50 to 100 happened in 2020.

[Aikári Salmarinian]

More to add: Yes, I was thinking back at Janowyn's place where there was a hidden 18+ forum for subsequent more private and grownup stuff, and how recently in Rivvy's place the roleplay forums were hidden from outside view. And I see that LB+ thread now pinned rather prominently in the OOME forum. Is that really handy? I am asking myself. Feels me to like standing on a chair than sitting and shouting: "I am here!" Should that not be in an area that is accessible for members only and not for all visitors to see? I feel seriously that this should be considered. The whole wide world doesn't have to know everything what we like to share among ourselves. Why don't have we have a "private" member forum (not what we had on Plaza 1.0 with membership), where you can tell safely what is on your mind? Without every bot or troll able to read. Being rather sensitive myself I would like very much that to have. That I can read when online and not when I am offline. I think this would be a nice addition in the community we have, and fit as a solution to a few earlier sensitive and hesitative problems already mentioned. There are some things I don't now post, because it is not there. And what is stashed of me in Rivvy's place, is all appropriate for the outside world to read and view.

[The Good Hunter]

Aik: I assume you mean the Bifröst, the LGBTQIA2S+ (it's not hard to type out the whole thing) thread? It is quite handy really and I see no reason why it should be hidden. Why on earth would anyone who has posted in that thread want to hide it? The thread is literally for the opposite. We don't want to be hidden anymore and we deserve to be able to tell our stories out in the open. Allies, too, shouldn't have to hide their support either. If you don't like it or what it implies for some reason, you can simply avoid the thread not read it. We don't want to hide anymore and I don't think we should have to.

Also, per your edit: that's the whole point. We are here. And we will continue to be here.

[Winddancer]

Ok let me just end that discussion right here. No, we will not be hiding the Bifrost thread away. There is no reason to hide it as there is nothing 18+ going on in there. It is a place for likeminded people to talk about how they have been affected and how society wants to box them in and hide them away. Which like I said, is not going to happen. NuPlaza, unlike OP is most definitely going to be a place for EVERYONE. If you want a place without XYZ then please feel free to persue a forum where that is the case, but that is definitely NOT here. And apart from making it better for all, the discussion about hiding/making secret forums/shunning anyone, is over.

[Lail]

Some further thoughts, and thanks for opening up discussion. I know we can always approach with feedback but I'm not usually the kind of person to speak up without being asked.

I will say I do think that transparency could be improved. I know we tried our best, especially with the blip and recovery, but there are other situations where it is hard to balance unobtrusive adminning with maintaining privacy and keeping drama off site and being transparent. I acknowledge it is NOT easy and I don’t have any more specific suggestions at this time other than I think sharing the admin pledge/expectations (or whatever it's officially unofficially called) of 4 things that nominees agree to would be a good start.


What would I like to see in the admins? I would like to see people who are capable of reviewing a situation in regard to the rules with an objective lens, the ability to be fair and unbiased in decision-making and separate themselves personally from a situation, someone who is open-minded and able to see alternate perspectives or put themselves in someone else’s shoes, willing to listen first and speak second, open to feedback and discussion even if they personally disagree, not jump to conclusions, make hasty judgments or make assumptions, is able to compromise and who is willing to work on a team even if they disagree sometimes. Being approachable is definitely a bonus but that’s all in the eye of the beholder.

No one person is likely to be all of these things all of the time which is why it’s important to have a balanced team. The point of a team, imo, is to have blended perspectives, experiences and strengths and I’ve tried to vote in those people I think exhibit these characteristics and will make a balanced team.


What would I like to see more of? In general, and this has nothing to do with admins, I’d like to see more RP in an open spirit. I think it’s really wonderful that friendship and writing partnerships/groups have emerged and a lot of private RP stories are just fantastic. I understand the feeling of safety and trust that develops in those situations and I definitely don’t want to not see that but part of me misses the more open spirit I felt was here in the earlier days– when RPs were open to all and people just dove right in. It felt fun, welcoming and easygoing to me. I’m not here to tell anyone else how to RP and I don’t want to go on a long tirade about what I want to see, I’d rather try (and hope) to do more of it myself because if I believe if I want to see something, it starts with me.

[Moriel]

@Aikári Salmarinian take some time to review the Plaza DEI Statement. We recognize that not everyone has the same views, but openness and acceptance are foundational to the values of this community. There is no reason for LGBTQIA2S+ folks and allies not to shout I am here!, in fact we welcome that. If respecting your fellow members in this area isn’t for you, then as Windy said, you are welcome to create your own forum. Such behavior will not be tolerated here.

[Winddancer]

I wasnt aware that what we as nominees promise to enforce should we be voted in, wasn't public knowledge!

Here is what we have to agree to when accepting the nomination:

During your potential 6-month admin term, you agree:

1. To enforce our rules and code of conduct, fairly and without prejudice, until such time that the admin team collectively chooses to change them.
2. To maintain the privacy of the admin team. What’s discussed in our private admin forums and chats should stay amongst the current admin team.
3. To make no admin decisions unilaterally - this means for important and hard-to-undo issues, we will consult each other and agree as a team.
4. To forgo tribbing ourselves and each other for the duration of our service.
(5. Supply Windy with endless and copious amounts of chocolate.)

[Nessa Saelind]

We gave everyone a bonus for that. The bump from 50 to 100 happened in 2020.

Oh, thanks for the link, I knew I mixed up the numbers! This is probably trivial but it keeps bugging me because I clearly remember Narv mentioning something about character limit being lowered... However, I could be misremembering or confusing it with that bonus or just the initial stage of me going bonkers well more bonkers than I am anyway but it keeps bugging me! Send help!

[The Good Hunter]

I'm pretty sure the threshold was only ever raised. And per the link Tara provided it was from 50 to 100, it's not moved since then.

Also apparently I've had this particular bee in my bonnet for longer than I thought.

[Karis Ziranphel]

What I would like to see of admins is something I also occasionally struggle with, which is reading and then taking the time to reread a post before reacting. Especially if I find myself triggered to anger for some reason. Recent posts included. In my job people often jump to conclusions without asking me about intent or if they even heard me correctly. Happened less than an hour ago in fact. But it is worth it for continued relationships to give one another the benefit of the doubt and work things out rather than shutting down. The only time I ever got in trouble on OP was because an admin misread a post and others had been making assumptions about me. It can be difficult to step back and recognize in ourselves. Let us extend grace to each other.

[Adulas]

*wanders in*

What would you like to see more of? Cookies. I'm partial to sugar, chocolate chip, and oatmeal.

*wanders out*

WD edit: I only have hoppit cookies, but here you go

[Winddancer]

@Karis Ziranphel That does assume that we don't reread posts ;) You have to keep in mind that what goes on here, isn't everything. We might also be reacting to several DMs on discord to put a stop to it, or reports being made using the report function. Sometimes, with some things you have to just shut it down, quick. Before the whole thread explodes. And yes, there are certain topics that are absolutely 100% not up for discussion and that is anything to do with hardhitters like racism and excluding people of the LGBTQIA2S+ community. If I have misunderstood what you were getting at, I do apologise and feel free to elaborate :)

[Drífa]

Is there something you think should be changed? (No.. no more kingdoms. He who shall not be named, who might be a troll, has spoken)
‘Why, I feel all thin, sort of stretched, if you know what I mean: like butter that has been scraped over too much bread. That can’t be right. I need a change, or something.’
Do we not have the power now to make these changes on our own? If one feels it is time for a change, they can open a new RP, game, contest, etc., true? I do not think NuP will ever be the OP, but we have a small piece of it to enjoy. I like it the way it is.
But if a change is needed, maybe fewer threads in each forum? Let us say six are allowed. There could be a time frame of, for example, three months? If a thread is very active, it can continue after the allotted time, and less active ones can be closed and the thread available for new ideas?

Do you have a suggestion as to how you would pick admins come this summer?
Should we stick with voting? (If you dont know how we did it before, the vote threads are still in this forum)
If we stick with voting do you think the way it is done now is fair? Do you have a suggestion as to how it could be more fair if no?
Do you know what being an admin involves now? Do you know what we actually do? (compared to what admins on OP did)
Do you have any expectations for the admins?
Are they being met?
If not how can we improve?
Do you think the amount of admins is sufficient? (Seeing as we just went from 5 to 3)

I have no issues with any of these points, except maybe to suggest volunteering for the admin position as an alternative to having members send in nominations. I admire anyone who steps up and takes the role of admin. Personally, what goes on behind the scenes is their job (that is why we elected them), and so far, I have never had a reason to question it. I do not expect admins to be an example for other members by posting, opening threads, and being active. As long as they perform their role as elected administrators fairly and justly, they are just another member as far as I am concerned. The admins should determine the number of admins needed by the amount of behind the scene activity involved, I would think.

What would you like to see more of? (Keep in mind with this one, that YOU are in charge of your own fun and it isn't up to the admins to make new RPs and such, feel free to make whatever you want! I will never stop loving this part.. remember when we had to ASK and WAIT and sometimes get declined??)

More Dwarves!! I love the freedom too of not having to ask and wait. I have ideas rolling around in my head and look forward to the time when they spring forth onto the page. Yet, I am in no hurry. I enjoy the plaza feel at this point; there is no rushing to make a post or update games. Thanks to all of you who make it feel this way!

[Winddancer]

Just my 2 cents as well me, without the admin hat.

I really like the idea of those wanting to be admins make known their willingness. Also cuts out the step of whoever is in charge of it having to check with each nominee and asking if they actually want it or not. Don't know why we havent been doing that all along lol

In regards to the limited threads, that makes me feel iffy. I mean I know we have a lot of "slower" kingdoms, but going in and saying you can only have 6 in the active ones, wont necessarily push people to the slower ones. There are certain types of characters I like rping and I wouldnt want to feel forced into an area I wouldnt particularly enjoy, just so that I have somewhere to post. I would like us to be able to indulge in our creativity, rather than have limits on it and time restrictions. When people stop posting in a thread, it just drops out of sight anyways, there is really no need to lock it. And who knows, a newbie might come along and revive it :D

I dont necessarily think a slow forum is a dead one either. Its there if anyone wants to RP and its not going to die just because it isnt rped in. Just goes dormant. I would say it is more up to those who never want to venture out of their kingdoms, to perhaps bring their X character off on an adventure and visit some of the other kingdoms ;) Or maybe discover the joy of creating NPCs that can be used for "quickies" (short little rps).

I have often thought there sure is a lot of Area RP threads and wondered if they couldnt just all be in one thread. But then I see the opening posts and they are so detailed and wonderfully described I think it would be a shame not to have it as it does help when you are not so familiar with certain places to get a feel for where you are rping. And I think we have been exceptionally good at not copying threads, so there is no competition for said activity. Hope that stays that way too as it has been nice not to see 7 of the same games.

[Drífa]

Change seems to come up when activity is low. At least it was like this in the past. Limited threads were just a bone I threw out because I am uncertain about needed changes.
Time seems to be a villain during this stage of my Plaza participation. I always had more time on OP and Regions - so the laid-back pace of NuP suits me fine. I struggle with long RP posts, and with limited time, it's not going to happen.
Where are those Sil games? Mr. Black is ready for a new adventure.

[The Good Hunter]

@Drifa, not for nothing, but I did just make a game in Fangorn Mr. Black might want to play

[Winddancer]

Well we are asking if people are looking for a change of something specific, not that we haaave to :P Keeping it as is, is perfectly fine, if that is what people want. We just want to make sure that people know that they can speak up, ask, suggest, comment, give feedback. It's good to get a reminder of that and also clues in the new members :)

[Fuin Elda]

Welp

Is there something you think should be changed? (No.. no more kingdoms. He who shall not be named, who might be a troll, has spoken) I think it would be nice getting points moved up to at least 200 points instead of 100 if that's where it is now (I realize that matches OP, but I feel the 500 character suggestion isn't fair to those that aren't major RPers. And it would also limit OOC post earning over all as well.

Do you have a suggestion as to how you would pick admins come this summer? I know Troll that will not be named said he won't be partaking in the voting this next round especially if one of the current admins is going to be taking the votes and be running for re-election as well. My first thought is voting but we need to make it more transparent.

Should we stick with voting? (If you dont know how we did it before, the vote threads are still in this forum) Yes - as much as I feel that most of this is a popularity contest where who has the most active friends on the plaza gets in it is still superior to incumbent voting in new admins of OP

If we stick with voting do you think the way it is done now is fair? Do you have a suggestion as to how it could be more fair if no? Possibly having the voting via a poll? Yes this will mean that there is a chance that people won't vote if they see that someone they want to win isn't getting votes at all (and may discourage nominees from accepting if they get no votes the election before) but It would keep it 100% anonymous and it would make it more transparent over all. (And if needed the troll can supersede a vote if those voted in don't have a set of skills needed especially if they lost out by one position (it would allow for 1,2 3 fairly easy on number of votes)

Do you know what being an admin involves now? Do you know what we actually do? (compared to what admins on OP did) Technically yes. I know the list as I've been nominated several times to be voted for. I would add that I believe there is a fair bit of trib involved, voting for ATRs, dealing with the behind the scenes drama.

Do you have any expectations for the admins? Outside of the Standard requirements which I feel really are I would like to see them be active, not necessarily any real hard set numbers but watching admins do nothing but sign on for months at a time with only Valinor(or whatever it's name is on here) posts to do things like ATRs etc feels very OP to me - I know that Sil has mentioned burn out - but if that's what is leading to not posting then that is probably a sign they should not be accepting another nomination and taking a break so they can recharge from the drama burn out.

Are they being met? For the most part yes, again I think it's possibly a case of admin burn out causing the one issue I'm seeing (and not from all of the admins all of the time) There is of course real life issues as well that I don't know about in some cases but for the most part the overall inactivity of the plaza as a whole has made it so we can get away with admins not being overly active on Plaza itself (I am no longer on discord I tossed it as I really didn't participate much and it was just a ton of notifications that I didn't need to read 99% of the time)But they were active on there when I was on discord far more so than they are on plaza itself.

If not how can we improve? Take some of that activity for discord and put it here on Plaza. Doesn't matter if it's just spammy PAM or chats in OOME, Discord is not the plaza. Is it a helpful tool for administration of the plaza? Yes but they are not the same.

Do you think the amount of admins is sufficient? (Seeing as we just went from 5 to 3)Yes. 3 is plenty, I agree with Frost in that if our admins were active 2 could probably do it BUT I like 3 as there is a veto vote for tie breaks if it comes to it.

What would you like to see more of? (Keep in mind with this one, that YOU are in charge of your own fun and it isn't up to the admins to make new RPs and such, feel free to make whatever you want! I will never stop loving this part.. remember when we had to ASK and WAIT and sometimes get declined??) Honestly thread wise nothing. Like you said if I want it? I'll make it and I'll post in it by myself if I have to I've done it enough time already for story development I'd love to see more people being active in various offerings but I know when I was active in early January the average 'active' member count per week was about 15 individuals in terms of actual posts and members can burn out just as much as admins do it's why I left.

[Zôrzimril]

but watching admins do nothing but sign on for months at a time with only Valinor(or whatever it's name is on here) posts to do things like ATRs etc feels very OP to me - I know that Sil has mentioned burn out - but if that's what is leading to not posting then that is probably a sign they should not be accepting another nomination and taking a break so they can recharge from the drama burn out.

I agree with you but if you are referring to my post above about burnout, I’m not Sil

[Lail]

Some more random thoughts/questions about the electoral process moving forward...

I like the ranked choice voting and I'd like it to stay. It allows me to place weight/emphasis on whom I want to see on the team depending on what I think is most important that round.

Nominations:
Self-nominations certainly makes sense in terms of voting efficiency and volunteers stepping up to say they are willing and that is a great point. At the same time, while I applaud those willing to step forward, I’d almost rather not see self-nominations to avoid “power grabs” or admins holding on for too long, which seems to be a common theme/concern in many of the posts I read here. Thereby, if members collectively think a current admin is not doing a good job, that admin cannot nominate themselves, thus allowing the people to speak and decide moving forward. I guess nominating others feels like the members collectively somehow have more of a say.

That said, if nominations do continue, I'd like to be able to nominate more than 3 people (or however many will end up on the team). I think this would help with variety and turnover by potentially yielding a larger and more varied pool of nominees. The pool has grown smaller with each subsequent election and if that continues, we may end up with 3 de-facto admins (who potentially all self-nominate, thus essentially removing the members’ majority say in the matter).

Throwing this not fully-developed idea out there-- To account for nominees who decline, could we nominate persons 1-3 (or however many it is) plus one “alternate” in the event of a decline?

Logistics/Questions:

Past elections run by Narv incorporated the "Narv's choice” option. Considering moving forward without a Narv-run election, will an "admin team's choice" (excluding themselves or how will that work? This seems awfully close to the old system) replace that? Or will it be determined solely by votes cast?

Continuing on a Narv-less election process, if conducted via email, will a new email address be created and/or old emails binned prior to the admin team accessing it? I don't think it's fair for the current team to see who voted for whom in the past. It has nothing to do with any of you individually or personally, just what I think is most fair and would avoid uncomfortable feelings all around.

Having said that...Is there anything that can be proposed instead of vote by email? Does anyone have ideas? Is there a way to anonymize votes while ensuring voter integrity (i.e. a person only gets to vote once)? Similar to what @Fuin Elda suggested, can it be done using polls within the site itself? Results will be visible for all to see, which means a fully transparent process, but having never created a poll, I don't know if admins or poll-creators are able to see responses identified by members or not. Also don't know how to incorporate ranked-choice voting in that...

Points? 200 seems reasonable, 500 seems excessive.

[Romeran]

Can I ask what the purpose of adjusting the points character limit is? It sounds like from context there was, at some point, a reduction (to 50?) so that individuals could catch up on points after a server crash (is that right)? But if 100 has been the standing point threshold for NuPlaza for most of it's time I'm not sure what we're trying to accomplish? Is there really that much spam in points-winning threads which is causing problems? Otherwise it seems like an easy way to "punish" newer members members who weren't around for when the limit was 100. Generally points became more generous (e.g. 2 point earning forums) as OP progressed rather than less generous. I'd remiss to say that earning some of the shiny icons wasn't motivating for some people. I feel like the quality of people's posting is pretty high, that spam in OOC and other threads is generally pretty low, and that even with the significantly lower limits there's not a ton of people with the higher icons (some of which seem to be the ones requesting for an increase in threshold which strikes me as a great example of "change the rule but only after I've benefited from it") in which case are we trying to solve a hypothetical problem?

[Zôrzimril]

Can I ask what the purpose of adjusting the points character limit is? It sounds like from context there was, at some point, a reduction (to 50?) so that individuals could catch up on points after a server crash (is that right)? But if 100 has been the standing point threshold for NuPlaza for most of it's time I'm not sure what we're trying to accomplish?

I know you weren’t around for this and there has been much back and forth on this topic so the confusion is totally understandable. It’s a tiny thing but I’m going to keep saying this to clarify what the previous admin teams I was on did and didn’t do: we never reduced the points-earning threshold. When Narv created the site it was 50, then a few months later in 2020, the admin team raised it to 100, where it has stayed since. We gave all registered members a bonus after the blip, which was announced here.

[Romeran]

I know you weren’t around for this and there has been much back and forth on this topic so the confusion is totally understandable. It’s a tiny thing but I’m going to keep saying this to clarify what the previous admin teams I was on did and didn’t do: we never reduced the points-earning threshold. When Narv created the site it was 50, then a few months later in 2020, the admin team raised it to 100, where it has stayed since. We gave all registered members a bonus after the blip, which was announced here.

Thanks for the clarification! It was a bit rough trying to get that from the posts above

So then I definitely wonder at the perceived added value in increasing it yet further to 200 given my points above.

[Zôrzimril]

No problem

[Romeran]

Most RP threads have a requested 300 character requirement. If the problem really is OOC threads, and it's really not that hard to write up 200 characters of nonsense (especially with emojis and such), then a more elegant solution would be to move the OOC threads to a non points winning forum rather than try to adjust the points threshold such that these threads won't give points as I think you'd have to make it pretty high to avoid it (as it's pretty easy to ramble, e.g. this post). But I'm really not sure this is an actual problem which is, for example, causing people to have a worse experience.

[The Good Hunter]

I suppose I should clarify on why I have such a bee in my bonnet over the character limit and why I think it should be raised.

1) I don't think 500 is excessive at all, in fact I think it's rather tame in comparison to what I would pick if I had free reign. 500 characters is not a lot in the grand scheme of things. Lore posts, RP posts, and game posts often reach a much higher count
2) I think raising the threshold will stop people from simply posting in OOC threads just to spam and increase their point count; at that point I think if people do that they should just say they're point-obsessed and don't care about how they're actually getting said points
3) A greater threshold would increase the thought that goes into writing RP posts. I cannot speak for everyone (indeed I appear to speak alone this and that's fine) but I love reading long posts, they have some much to offer in terms of beautiful language, plot, and character development. I see longer posts as something to look forward to, if I just reading or RPing alongside.

I know it's unlikely (ie, I know it's not going to happen) and nearly everyone thinks differently, but a Nazgul can dream, right?

[Romeran]

1) I don't think 500 is excessive at all, in fact I think it's rather tame in comparison to what I would pick if I had free reign. 500 characters is not a lot in the grand scheme of things. Lore posts, RP posts, and game posts often reach a much higher count

As you point out already lore and RP posts meet this requirement without there having to be a point incentive to write more. So why is this needed?

2) I think raising the threshold will stop people from simply posting in OOC threads just to spam and increase their point count; at that point I think if people do that they should just say they're point-obsessed and don't care about how they're actually getting said points

I would agree, if I saw any evidence of this. Perhaps this was more of a problem in the past but I don't see this happening.

3) A greater threshold would increase the thought that goes into writing RP posts. I cannot speak for everyone (indeed I appear to speak alone this and that's fine) but I love reading long posts, they have some much to offer in terms of beautiful language, plot, and character development. I see longer posts as something to look forward to, if I just reading or RPing alongside.

Seems like point (1) i.e. that most lore and RP posts already exceed this threshold, would prove as evidence against this point: people already make posts well above 500 characters and unless you made it much higher I don't think this would actively encourage long posts. And if you did make it considerably higher I think it would discourage people from posting at all. I enjoy long posts I also enjoy shorter posts. I also don't think that the length of a post is necessarily a reflection on its quality. It's easy to ramble, be repetitive, provided unnecessary details, or in a lore post to repeat things, use too many quotations, speak around the point rather than to the point. Personally, I prefer a more concise writing style.

I think if you wanted to encourage longer points a more elegant solution (though quite likely harder to implement) would be to award points incrementally by length. E.g. 2 points for the first X characters and then Y points for every Z characters thereafter. Like 2 for 100chars + 1 point every 500 or something. I think that would actually incentivize longer posts, if that's the goal. You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar as they say.

[Nessa Saelind]

First of all, let me apologise for causing confusion with the numbers regarding the character limit. When I say that I am horrible with numbers, especially with remembering them, I am not joking. It's an issue. So if I ever misremember anything related to numbers it's never on purpose, they just get mixed up. So once again I am truly sorry for the number confusion relating to this.


Concerning the character limit, points and post quality: as you have probably seen there is a way to encourage and award the quality of writing that is reflected in longer posts. Both admins and members do an awful lot of reading of what people write here and admins can and do (frequently) award tribute points for the quality of posts regardless of where they are located. Members can also ask the admins to award points for posts they think are well written, interesting, funny etc. and I encourage you to do it. So there's a mechanism in place to award people for good work without necessarily raising the character limit bar.

However, we are reading/listening to your feedback and if the majority of people are in favour of raising the character limit and we reach a consensus regarding the number it won't be a problem to implement that.

[The Good Hunter]

As old men are wont to yell at clouds and Nazgul are wont to screech unholy, I know I am not going to get an increase to happen and that's fine in the end. Every once in a while I need to climb on my soapbox and shout to all the nonexistent members that agree with me.

I am very aware of all the work the NPF does and all the reading and tribbing she does on top of all the member requested tribute. I have benefitted quite a lot from both versions of trib she awards and I think that that is a wonderful way to be recognized.

So pick whatever metaphor you'd like, bees in bonnets, soapboxes, or old men and clouds, this is just me quixotically wishing for something I know won't come to pass

[Winddancer]

So this is basically what a 100 character post looks like, this short sentence will get you 2 points

That there above was counted out on a word counter and is exactly 100 character, without emojis or code, so cool :P Anyways. I am 50% in the group of raising it, to 200 though. The reason being just how little you have to write to get 2 points. Had it been 1 point, I wouldnt even care at all, but it seems such a spammy way of getting two points. And it does get spammy in ooc threads btw.

My alter ego though, says go for it! Spam away! Narv encourages it! More points to the people! As long as they are active I will give them tons of points just to keep them posting! Points dont matter! (Luckily this is the one that dominates when it comes to tribute and why she gives 10 instead of 5 most of the time :P )

So yea, there is a war in my brain and decided to just let the majority decide and be fine with whichever one it is lol :P

@Tuilindo we aren't 100% sure whether Narv will still do the elections or not just yet. If he decides he is done, we will of course find a way to do it without involving current admins, because they should absolutely not have their fingers in that pie ;) And of course we will be talking about it with everyone beforehand. And no we will never be allowed to see past votes, if anything a new email will be created if Narv cant do it. Dont worry, your past votes are 100% safe with Narv :)

I do love the idea of just signing up to be on the nomination list, kinda like a real world election. You put your foot forward and show you want to be voted for, that you want the job. Right now we can self nominate, so yea not much different from that, other than it takes out a step of Narv having to contact all the nominees and ask if they want it or not. I dont think we will ever get around power grabs. Nor will we likely ever get around those who stay in the admin role though they clearly do not have the time (not saying it is so now or prior). It is unfortunately part of the "power" of the role. Some just cant let it go, even if they dont have the time, or do what they promised during the elections. Boris Johnson still hasnt given the 300 million to the NHS.. :P

But, that is where the members hold the real power. They need to be more critical and make sure not just to vote on friends or popularity but on who they think will do the job, be active/available and most importantly unbiased. The last thing we want is for admins to come across as just favouring their friends, whether it be in disputes or tribbing. That being said it can look that way, even though it is not the case, so keep that in mind. If you are worried someone isnt getting tributed for their posts/activity, then you are more than welcome to request some for them. Just keep in mind some are given and the person doesnt always mention it, that I have noticed is quite common with the Lore trib given :) Which is fine! It is why I try and make my rounds outside of my favoured kingdoms as well, to ensure that Lore and the kingdoms that I dont frequent get some loving too. Meh that sounded like I am bragging about it, but just want to provide context as to why admins should make sure to go ALL over the Plaza and not just their lil favourite playgrounds, which is done.

But here is the thing, YOU have the power, now more than ever as your vote will count for a LOT. The last 2 elections it really was neck and neck, so close. 1 vote can really decide on who gets in. So if you do care about who is running the place and what they do and what they stand for and so on, well then vote! If you are unsatisfied with X, then vote for Y. Use your power :)

"Past elections run by Narv incorporated the "Narv's choice” option. Considering moving forward without a Narv-run election, will an "admin team's choice" (excluding themselves or how will that work? This seems awfully close to the old system) replace that? Or will it be determined solely by votes cast?" - Lail

I dont know tbh, I am still fighting for Narv sticking around to do the elections, wish me luck! :P

[Lail]

@Tuilindo we aren't 100% sure whether Narv will still do the elections or not just yet. If he decides he is done, we will of course find a way to do it without involving current admins, because they should absolutely not have their fingers in that pie ;) And of course we will be talking about it with everyone beforehand. And no we will never be allowed to see past votes, if anything a new email will be created if Narv cant do it. Dont worry, your past votes are 100% safe with Narv :)

I would expect/assume this, but all the same, it's great to see it explicitly stated!

I dont know tbh, I am still fighting for Narv sticking around to do the elections, wish me luck! :P

I agree, that would be ideal (and would make some of my points moot anyway!), soo good luck!! But I also fully get Narv not wanting to do it.

Basically I wanted to throw those thoughts/questions out there for everyone to consider/chew on (if they want to) because I am interested in what they think.

Also I'm sorry if anyone misinterpreted what I said about power grabs... Looking back, I could see that what I said might be seen as implying someone has or will do so, which is not at all what I meant. I just know it's been mentioned before (especially in context of the OP), which is why I said that. My own personal preference is to see nominations go pretty much as they have with both self- and others- nominating. If majority want something else, that's fine and the way it should be. Ultimately I'm just happy to see elections continue in some capacity!

[Ercassie]

Ok, I said I was going to keep out of all things OOC and just have RP fun this year, but having already made a bit of an OOC mess today already I may as well get it all out of my system and start the OOC diet tomorrow.


I think the matter of whether we get points for posts, and which posts are worthy of earning points, and even how many points to earn per post, is a bit of a null point (no pun intended), to be honest. I have participated on sites where there are points and on others where there are not. And the far more important thing is that people are posting. Because if no one posted on the site, there may as well not be a site at all. Yes, the OOC threads can veer a little off course sometimes, but a lot of that feels more like members letting loose a little outside of the RP/IC rules, and sharing something of the person behind the computer, rather than just people deliberately spamming to gain means to creep up the ranks. There have been plenty of games on the site which were just as (if not more) spammy than OOC threads, and if you took a look at say the first page of a certain Elimination Game thread, that would be quite clear. Every post is a part of the plaza. Except for that rude and irrelevant spam which is probably regularly chewed up by admins anyway, there is no post more 'worthy' of being here than another, regardless of length or content, or there ought not be. The plaza caters to all and it is what it is, largely because of all the wide diversity of subjects and styles which ARE posted here.


Similarly, the notion of encouraging people to compose longer posts seems a bit preachy to me; and I am saying this as a person who definitely tends toward making longer posts, both in RP and OOC, and I regularly wish mine could be more concise, perhaps less quantity and more quality, etc. Every one of us is different and this version of the plaza more than ever before has taken a stance on celebrating our right to be whoever we want to be without judgement. So to imply that longer posts are better than short ones, is a little unfair. Everyone should be allowed and encouraged to contribute exactly as much or little as they want to. We are here to each speak our voice, not to all shape our voices into a completely uniform style. Many members are also typing in English as not their first language, and the fact that they do so incredibly well, so much that we tend to forget the fact, does not take away from the fact that we have no right to expect everyone to manage the same end result.


The suggestion which was made earlier about members being able to delete their posts, is however an interesting one. Given that we can currently only delete a post if no one has posted after us in that thread yet. Members were recently gifted the right to manage their own name changes, in the name of giving ‘power’ back to the people, and surely giving members control of deleting their own posts would not only follow that trend, but also might lessen the ‘chore’ for admins to have to do it for us all. I’m not saying that it is likely a very frequent request made of the admins, but by the explanations given on how much an admin has to do to achieve it, surely our ability to do so for our own posts, would help reduce even a small pressure on them and make us more responsible for our contributions.


With regard to activity/discord, I have said in the past (and been criticised for the opinion) that I feel admins should be a visible presence on the plaza. This might, I will admit, tie in to the experience whereby on older versions of the plaza an unseen admin often meant one who had stopped even logging in, but was keeping anyone more active from holding that position of authority and doing something useful with it. I hasten to add that not all the admins on old plaza were guilty of this, nor of other common/negative 'old admin' traits. And I do wish that could be remembered a bit more, when people here are sometimes very quick to generalise that everything from before was awful. There were some very good admins, and some of them are now members on this site, so a bit of respect might be owed to those few when some of us constantly go on about how all old admins were awful. I was never was an admin on old plaza myself, have no interest in being so on this site, but this generalising prejudice is something I have noticed and wish others might stop to consider for a moment.


The point was made earlier that it is transparency as much as visible activity of admins which is a factor. Well, yes, because it is clearly entirely possible for an admin who posts very little, to do a lot behind the scenes that we are not aware of. Without Narv himself none of us would even be here, but how many RPGs has he contributed to ? Just as example. It is also though, completely understandable that admins who are not seen as posting a lot on the site itself, as opposed to say chatting constantly on Discord, must realise it’s not the regular member’s fault we can’t see what you do for the site ! You can not both be invisible and applauded. If we don’t know, we don’t know. And while there are clearly matters which the general membership does not require to know or should not, for the sake of privacy in delicate handling of people management, perhaps a regular sort of check in from the admins would be a nice way to show us not only what we should be thankful to those we hadn’t even seen for, but also, show what prospective admins can expect to deal with if they are elected.


Everyone has a virus protection thing on their computer, for eg. So I’m just supposing that maybe the admins could post a regular 'virus' type update. Like a still confidential but informative ‘report’ maybe once a month or something like :
eg
Number of spamming ‘buy my Viagra’ posts deleted – 12
Number of disagreements negotiated to mutual resolution behind closed doors – 3
Number of new rules brought or amended this month – 7


Maybe not that exactly, but maybe something along that sort of thinking. In fact, the very same sort of thing as the opening of this thread at all, and the open admissions by admins/former admins that have been expressed here. Not all of us are best friends on discord with an admin/former admin. We don’t hear about what it’s like or what they’re going through as RL people. So we can forget that admins are also people at times. We can struggle to consider an argument we are having with them, from their point of view. And that is where irreconcilable troubles occur and bad feelings fester.

In this thread alone we have learned about the pledge that prospective admins have to accept before entering election, and a little more from personal accounts of what is involved and what it can feel like to actually be an admin on this site. This is exactly the sort of thing that the general membership is unaware of. So while you are quietly working yourself into a breakdown behind the scenes we are just wondering why we never see those people who surely should care most about the site, given that they swore in elections to preserve and protect it, .. and are only then after observed constantly chatting in discord and not even necessarily make a single welcome post to a newbie etc etc ?


Certainly the opportunity to vote for admins, and for members of the month, and for ARPYs, and anything else .. honestly some months it feels like too much voting is being thrust at us ! .. well it is a far better alternative to the old version where only admins had any say in anything. Making it an absolutely fair electoral process would be a global peace type accomplishment, that I don’t think we’ll ever manage. Whatever our icons, we are all only human at the end of the day. But I do like the idea that was already proposed in posts above this one, about possibly using the poll threads. They are already a part of this site, and have been used before to accommodate questions like ‘what kingdoms should we have ?' and ‘what age should our rp be set in ?’ etc .. So, yes, that could bear some deeper thinking on ? Are these polls in fact anonymous ? Because if they could be set up for only members to be able to vote in them, without showing to anyone, admin or otherwise, behind the scenes who’d voted for which option ..then that sounds like something along the right track.

[Fuin Elda]

@Zôrzimril Apologies my brain saw Sil right above one of your posts talking about the HoK and put the two together.

As far as I am aware the on site polls don't show who voted just how many have voted. THERE MIGHT be a way in the back end but I've never found it honestly...it might be all the way in the databases rather than in the Admin or Mod controls (which would be why I've never seen it).

[Winddancer]

@Ercassie Thank you for pitching in, regardless of your intent not to. It is SO valuable to hear from all and it IS appreciated :)

Just want to address one thing and this is based on what I know, which might be wrong but not being able to delete your posts is not a deliberate thing. It is my understanding it is a PHPBB limitation and definitely not something the admins chose not to have. But I will investigate and see if that is truly the case, or if Narv wanted it that way for X reason or I am remembering wrong :P

Also I had a quick look at polls while logged in as admin and I cant see who voted. I even entered the post to edit to see if it could be seen there and I couldnt. I dont know if we have access through the control panel, but I am sure @Narv can let us know if that is the case or we can google PHPBB polls and find out.
My biggest concern with polls is, while it may be nice for members to see who is in the lead, with how few are voting how would it make the nominees (and members I guess) feel knowing that a person might win on as little as 4 votes?

[Winddancer]

@Ercassie and everyone else of course, just checked with Narv and it is indeed a phpbb thing. We both seem to remember we tried to change it but couldnt. Sorry! I know it is frustrating not to be able to remove it yourself, but I promise we dont mind doing it seeing as you cant <3