Absurd ArgumENTS

[Mojo]

As Ents, lengthy discourse and discussion is part of our very nature. For those visiting members of other kingdoms of Middle-Earth, you all have seen important debates throughout your history whether it be deciding whether or not to re-establish a Dwarven dwelling in Khazad-dum, the whereabouts of the One Ring, or how best to prepare for an attack by the forces of Saruman.

On the Old Plaza (and maybe some day again on the New), "Debate" has taken on a bit of a different meaning as an organized activity that focuses on discussing specific topics while making a case for or against (the "pro" or "con" argument if you will). Organized Plaza Debate has not yet been re-started but if there is some interest you never know! To get back in the swing of practicing building cases and making arguments, now seems like a good a time as ever to have a little fun with things.

Basically, this is an open debate thread where you can choose from any of the listed topics and post an argument for or against that topic as you wish. If you desire, you may also write a rebuttal post to contradict an argument that someone else has made about one of the topics. There is no limit to how many posts you can make for or against any topic, but please try to keep it reasonable (i.e. don't make 10 posts on one topic that all say basically the same thing). If you have an idea for a topic you'd like to see added to the list, suggest it and I'll consider adding it!

A few ground rules:

• Try to write at least a paragraph or two. If possible, use quotes to support your argument.
• Note at the top of your post whether you are arguing PROPOSITION (for) or OPPOSITION (against) a certain topic. It's your choice which side you want to take. If you're feeling ambitious and want to take bothsides, go for it! (Just split them up into separate posts).
• In order to help differentiate between topics, suggested posting colors are included with each topic.
• This is open to anyone who would like to participate!

Now, here's the catch: rather than having serious topics, the topics for this thread will be somewhat ludicrous. This might make putting together a rational argument a little more difficult, but hey, have fun with it!

Topics:

• Frodo's journey to Mount Doom would have been easier if he had an iPhone. (#0000FF)
• The Calaquendi are called the High Elves because they discovered pipeweed. (#BF8040)
• One of the Nine was a woman. (#FF00FF)
• The Eagles of Manwe were more in harmony than The Eagles band. (#40080)
• Sauron's eye was red and burning from watching too much Netflix. (#FF0000)
• Feanor needed some valium. (#00BFFF)
• Fingolfin should've challenged Morgoth to a Battle of the Bands instead of a physical fight. (#008000)
• Morgoth should've used inception on Hurin to discover the location of Gondolin. (#8000FF)
• If one does not simply walk into Mordor, how does one get there? (#FF8000)
• Elrond had better hair than Galadriel. (#000000)

Feel free to also make in-character posts in between the Argument posts with your character(s) commenting on arguments that were made.

Most importantly...have fun with this!

[Fairy Nuff]

Frodo's journey to Mount Doom would have been easier if he had an iPhone - Opposition

The main case in the argumENT against this suggestion is the complete lack of cell coverage in most of Middle Earth - you only have to look at the topography of the route that Frodo and the Fellowship took to realise the impossibility of installing masts in those strategic locations where it would have been useful. The wide open plains of Rohan, and the only-mildly-hilly area of the Shire and surroundings lend themselves to good cell reception, but attempting to install a mast in Moria, along the mountain pass of Caradhras, in Lothlorien, or in Mordor itself would be near impossible, and even if achieved would provide only limited range and strength of signal, due to the interference caused by rock and or trees, plus the volcanic ash in the air around Mount Doom - all these things lead to very poor reception.

Even assuming sufficient masts could be installed to ensure adequate coverage for the whole journey (which would be at considerable cost and low return for whichever provider managed it, given the low population in most of the areas affected), in order for it to be useful to Frodo he would need his companions to also be on the same network, or at least a network that can piggyback on his network, or they wouldn't get signal, meaning he could call or message, for sure, but could not get an answer. Gandalf would get to Rohan and have 75 missed calls from an increasingly frantic Frodo.

So on the basis that Frodo can't reliably use the iPhone for communicating with friends, family or companions, the other option would be to use apps. Unfortunately I don't believe Google Middle Earth has completed the comprehensive mapping of ME yet, so there wouldn't be an option to use Directions to find the shortest route across the Dead Marshes for example, and he wouldn't be able to check real time traffic through Moria. I concede that he may have found the torch and camera apps useful, but these don't have to be on an iPhone, a normal torch or camera would do just as well.

So, if Frodo cannot use his call plan, has limited (if any) data, and there are limited apps available, the next question is how and when Frodo can charge up the iPhone - Frodo's journey is a long one, and no Li ion battery will last that long, even assuming it was fully charged when he left the Shire. I assume that Rivendell has charging facilities, and possibly Lothlorien too, but I believe that even with limited use the battery would be dead for more of the journey than it was charged.

Next is the notorious nature of iPhone screens to crack if you so much as tap them. Given the treacherous terrain and perilous events of Frodo's journey, I am confident that given the statistical probability of an iPhone screen cracking in day to day situations, the screen on Frodo's iPhone would have been smithereens before they left Moria. At least modern iPhones can claim to be waterproof, which is just as well, but Frodo would need to equip his phone with a seriously hardcore case to protect it, which would in turn make it more bulky and more at risk of slipping out of a pocket, or being dropped down an abyss.

I could go on, but I will make one final point here - Frodo spent a lot of time running and hiding from enemies. Can you imagine the impact on the quest if Frodo's iPhone had beeped with a Snapchat notification just as the Nazgul were sniffing for them on the way to the Buckleberry Ferry? I rest my case.

[Oak]

Sauron's eye was red and burning from watching too much Netflix.

*The Huorn cleared her throat and crossed her many whips in front of her upper trunk.*

"I will have to make this an argument against: Would Sauron have time to watch Netflix? He is quite busy overseeing his troops of Orcs. He has to keep his one eye on them and to make sure that a certain two Hobbits are not trying to slip in under his watchful eye. This task requires his constant vigilance. He is also commanding his Nine Ring Wraiths. These 9 take up a lot of his time, and he is giving orders to them.

There is also his alliance with Saruman. He communicates with Saruman via the Palantir. This is another task that is demanding to insure that Saruman in his tower does not stray from his assigned duties, of building up Orthanc, building Orc Armies and keeping the Trees from swallowing up the circle again.

There is also the issue of internet reception out in Mordor. There is no DSL and no Dishes set up out there. The frequent volcanic eruptions and ash clouds
would damage such equipment and effect reception.

Sauron's eye is red because he is hated by many and he's always having to watch his back. If he becomes lax or distracted, some Hobbit might slip in and throw his precious ring into the bowels of Mount Doom. Now where would he be if that happened?"

[Mojo]

Frodo's journey to Mount Doom would have been easier if he had an iPhone - PROPOSITION

Let us for a moment, suspend our prejudices that "modern" technology could not exist in a time that bears more resemblance to medieval times than modern times. Additionally, let us assume that there were charging stations available throughout the trip from the Shire to Mordor, lest Frodo's iPhone battery have gone dead before he even reached the Prancing Pony. Assuming this all to be true, Frodo could have received many benefits from carrying an iPhone with him on his journey to Mordor.

Frodo faced many struggles and challenges on his journey from the Shire to the Black Land, this is for certain. The question at hand is not whether Frodo's journey would have been pain-free had he been carrying an iPhone, but rather if it would have been easier than it was without an iPhone.

Let us begin at the beginning. With an iPhone, Frodo could have easily known that Gandalf was not going to meet him in the Shire at the beginning of his journey, thanks to a simple text, tweet, Facebook update or Snapchat from Mithrandir. This would have enabled Frodo to set off earlier and not have to worry about being chased by the Nazgul all the way to Rivendell. Additionally, a similar status update from Frodo could have garnered help for Aragorn and the four hobbits in the wilderness much faster than a chance meeting with Glorfindel.

Jumping forward to the Emyn Muil and Dead Marshes, where Frodo squandered precious time because he was lost. With an iPhone, he could have easily used the navigation function to find his way through the hills and marshes, right up to the Black Gate of Mordor. He still would likely have chosen a detour, but any Maps app could have shown him that there were alternative routes into Mordor other than using the front door. Having an iPhone would have made Gollum essentially useless, though it's hard to say whether or not Siri would have been more useful than Smeagol in the end.

[KingODuckingham]

One of the Nine was a woman, Proposition

An argument on this point, let us be clear, must be constructed around the strength or weakness of a hypothesis, since we have no direct written evidence or paleontology from which to work. This post will be attempting to establish the plausibility and rational confidence that one of the Nine was a woman, rather than attempting to prove anything, per se.

The first and most important thing for us to note is the precedent for women being called kings. Since it is stated that nine rings were for nine kings, we ought to demonstrate that the word king, while typically male, has been given to multiple women over the course of history, and those women chose to call themselves such. There are multiple examples across many countries; I will list here only a few of the most notable. In Ancient Egypt, Hatshepsut (and several others) referred to themselves by the title Pharaoh, which was typically masculine [Hatshepsut went so far as even to wear the ceremonial male beard in court!]. Many years later, during the Byzantine Empire, Irene named herself Basileus, the Greek word for king. And in Poland, the famous Jadwiga was titled Rex Poloniae, rather than the feminine title Regia. There are other examples, but let these suffice to say that a woman being named King is not unheard of.

It is perhaps, still unusual. But it becomes much less unlikely when we consider the number of kingdoms we actually see in Middle-earth versus the number of Ringwraiths that there are. By even a generous estimate, we might divide Middle-earth as seen in Lord of the Rings (post-Numenor) into something like twenty kingdoms, and many of those I am calling kingdom when really they would be provinces of Arnor or Gondor. For even just one of those Nine to be a woman suddenly seems eminently possible. Occam's razor would dictate, in fact, that we guess for at -least- one female ruler, rather than none. After all, in the very tale of Lord of the Rings itself we see at least one prominent female ruler in Galadriel. Numenor had several female rulers, who while often called Queen in our histories, shared the title prefix Tar- with their male counterparts.

Thirdly, we must remind ourselves that while lack of evidence is no argument for us, it is also no argument against us. We argue for plausibility, not certainty. The precedents, both in reality and in Middle-earth, seem to point in our favor. The only thing that might have defeated our consideration is directly opposing evidence. Yet there is none. The most reasonable conclusion, then, is the overwhelming likelihood that one of the Nine was a woman.

[Lail]

Sauron's eye was red and burning from watching too much Netflix. - PROPOSITION

"One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them.
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie."

It is clear from this verse that the One Ring actually functioned for Sauron as a technological device which brought together all of his favourite streaming services into one location. Sauron wanted his ring so that he would no longer have to move between Netflix, Hulu and HBO GO, but instead could find all of his favourite shows in one place. This was Sauron's true dream. (After all, why do you think Smeagol turned into Gollum after years of owning the Ring? He didn't get out into the sun enough because he was too busy watching TV.)

Sauron's Eye is described as being red and lidless. But we are never told precisely what it is he is watching with his eye. It is obvious that he has been staring at LED screens for too long and has very advanced case of Computer Vision Syndrome. This syndrome causes dry, red eyes and painful headaches due to exposure to blue light emitting from LED screens. This is why his Eye was always red and lidless. He didn't blink enough while watching screens and the blue light wrecked his vision!

Most likely, he watched his favourite binge-worthy shows like Breaking Bad, How To Get Away With Murder, and Evil. He also wanted his Ring back because he didn't want Frodo to see in his viewing history that he watched The Golden Girls. (He could never talk to the Orcs about it, they just wouldn't understand the trials Blanche, Rose, Sophia and Dorothy faced as older single ladies).

In rebuttal to @Oak's argument, surely Sauron had plenty of time to watch Netflix. He had tons of Orcs and his trusty Nine Nazgul to do all his work for him just like any good CEO does. Fetch me a coffee? Sure. Fetch me my Ring? Sure, we'll get right on that, boss! (Meanwhile the Nazgul roamed Middle-earth on their horses trying to look like they were busy working without actually doing much of anything.)

Technological difficulties? No problem! Why do you think he lived in such a tall tower? So he could get the best reception for his binge-watching. After all, "The Lord of the Ring is not Frodo, but the master of the Dark Tower of Mordor, whose power is again stretching out over the world." (Gandalf, Many Meetings, The Fellowship of the Ring) If his electricity was spreading across Middle-earth, then he clearly had no issues with powering his devices to watch Netflix for hours on end. Obviously, he was very distracted by watching Tiger King that he didn't even notice Frodo and Sam slip into Mount Doom and that is further evidence that Sauron's Eye was indeed red and burning from watching too much Netflix.

[KingODuckingham]

Ducky stood and listened carefully to all the presentations, but he was particularly interested in the one where there were two sides so far. Truly, there was a sparked debate on this proposition of iPhone's and their usefulness to Frodo. He had been sure when he heard the first opposition that there could be no counterargument, but that had been a hasty conclusion. Now, after hearing the proposition's positive side, he could no longer decide so quickly. He looked around, wondering if anyone else would speak up on the topic to provide triangulation.

"Surely there must be someone with the experience and wisdom to remark on this topic?" he pleaded with the room. If not, perhaps he would marshal his own arguments, once he decided on a position himself. He was sure, at least, that there was more to say.

[Túrin]

Fingolfin should've challenged Morgoth to a Battle of the Bands instead of a physical fight. - PROPOSITION
Note: Sorry about breaking the color-code, but I will be changing the quotes to blue, for easier reading. I'm happy to change them to something else.



Turin glanced up from his table in the corner, several books open and loose papers scattered across. Glancing at the position of the sun, he swore quietly to himself, taking two pages and started towards the front of the glade. After several steps he turned around, muttering, and grabbed another paper from his table before walking up to the podium. His muttering continued as he walked "Thrice-cursed Gandalf" he said, "Oh, a 'Wizard is never late, Frodo Baggins'" he muttered sarcastically, "absolute balderdash, utter nonsense. After all, did he himself not later tell Frodo 'I was delayed'? What a crank, better for us all if he'd kept his fat mouth shut." Having arrived at the rock ledge which served as the speaker's stage in Fangorn - Turin had always been fond of the debating glen - he ceased his muttered rantings and smiled at the debaters gathered.

Friends and comrades! I apologize for my tardiness here. One of the theses here today is of utmost import, yet has remained hitherto untouched. Songs have been sung of this great event, its glory and majesty, and yet of it's terrible sorrow. How we wish it would have gone otherwise, though the weave of history's tapestry would be the lesser for it. I refer, as you must know, to the mournful subject of Fingolfin's duel with Morgoth. Though amongst the most wise of the Eldar, even of the Noldor in their prime, fresh arrived on the shores of Middle-earth and still brimming with the light of the Two Trees, Fingolfin made a fatal error that day after the Dagor Bragollach when he challenged to a duel Morgoth, the Black Enemy of the World. For though Fingolfin was "the strongest, the most steadfast, and the most valiant" (Silmarillion, Of Eldamar) of his father's mighty children, and though his sword "Ringil, that glittered with ice" (Silmarillion, Of the Ruin of Beleriand) was a bane most bitter to his foes, it was not Ringil that Fingolfin should have wielded, but his voice. Verily, I say to you, that Fingolfin should've challenged Morgoth to a Battle of the Bands instead of a physical fight.

There are, I think, two fundamental truths which demonstrate the veracity of this thesis. They relate to the nature of the Eldar, and to the nature of Morgoth. I shall address each in turn. The first point is that The Elves were supreme singers.

After they awoke, the Elves named themselves Quendi, meaning "those that speak with voices" (Silmarillion, Of the Coming of the Elves). So even from their very beginning, the Elves' voices were their defining feature. Indeed, we go on to read that when the mighty huntsman Orome chanced upon them he "wondered and sat silent, and ... he heard afar off many voices singing." (Silmarillion, Of the Coming of the Elves). Indeed, of the three great clans of the Eldar, we are told that the Noldor "are renowned in song, for they fought and laboured long and grievously in the northern lands of old" and that the Teleri were called "the Falmari, for they made music beside the breaking waves." (Both: Silmarillion, Of the Coming of the Elves).

I think that this demonstrates the affinity of the Eldar to song, so I shall not belabor you with the evidence. I will say only that it is likely no accident that Thingol became entranced with Melian from her song, and it is no chance that Fenor's retort to Mandos for the kinslaying of Alqualonde declared "we will do on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda." (Silmarillion, Flight of the Noldor). Only one more example do I wish to bring to your attention: The context of Finrod Felagund with Sauron, for we read in the histories that "Thus befell the contest of Sauron and Felagund which is renowned. For Felagund strove with Sauron in songs of power, and the power of the King was very great" (Silmarillion ,Beren and Luthien).

Unfortunatley, Sauron, as we are told in the Lay of Leithian, had the mastery:

"He chanted a song of wizardry,
Of piercing, opening, of trechary,
Revealing, uncovering, betraying.
Then sudden Felagund there swaying,
Sang in answer a song of staying,
Resisting, battling against power,
Of secrets kept, strength like a tower,
And trust unbroken, freedom, escape;
Of changing and of shifting shape,
Of snares eluded, broken traps,
The prison opening, the chain that snaps.
Backwards and forwards swayed their song
Reeling and foundering, as ever more strong
the chanting swelled, Felagund fought,
And all the magic and might he brought
Of Elvenesse into his words ... "
(Silmarillion, Beren and Luthien)

The Lay continues, but this illustrates an important point: To the Eldar, especially to the mighty of the Eldar, song was more than beautiful noises. For the Eldar, song is power. Felagund was able to channel magic and might into his words, effecting physical change in the world, breaking the chains of his companions, throwing open the gates of Tol-in-Gaurhoth. While Felagund was defeated, it is clear that songs of power are not to be taken lightly.

We move now to Morgoth. While he is much greater in might than Sauron, there are several aspects to consider which make a battle of the bands more favorable to Fingolfin than crossing of swords. First, ask yourself, what is Morgoth known for? The answer, of course, is discord. From the time before Time, we read that "these thoughts he now wove into his music, and straight-away discord arose around him ... the discord of Melkor spread ever wider" (Silmarillion, Ainulindale).

Straight-away. Immediately when Melkor began to pursue his own path, discord arose. Melkor was, from before the start, literally incapable of enacting his own vision in glorious song, but only in brash, violent noise. Melkor's discord has effects in the world, for example we read that the Orc may have arising "Out of the discords of the Music - sc. not directly out of either of the themes, Eru's or Melkor's, but of their dissonance with regard to one another - evil things appeared in Arda, which did not descen from any direct plan or vision of Melkor: they were not 'his children'" (Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed, Text VII). So Melkor's discord has effects, but these are not conscious plans of his. He attempted to weave his own thoughts into the Music, but only managed to effect accidental results.

And thus we come to the crux of the matter.

On the one hand we have Fingolfin. Might among the Eldar of old, a race renowned for their song, a race endowed with a power of song. One of his close kin, Finrod, mighty himself, yet possessed of less strength, was able to strive with Sauron, who was also mighty with songs of power. On the other hand we have Morgoth, a being who even in his beginning was incapable of properly enacting his thoughts through songs of power, who managed only discord and brash accidents. And by the time of the Dagor Bragollach? Melkor had fallen mightily, no longer was he Melkor, mightiest of the Valar. He was now Morgoth, a lesser being, nigh to if not having completed his descent into nihilism. Ludicrous, we should call it, to even consider that one such as Morgoth would stand a chance against High King Fingolfin in a battle of song. And that, my friends, is why Fingolfin should have challenged Morgoth to a battle of the bands, rather than to physical combat. Thank you.

Collecting his few sheets upon which he had collected his thoughts and scribbled out a few quotes for reminders - not to mention various doodles, all poorly drawn - Turin returned to his table. Though after depositing his notes, he realized that he was parched from the speech. Wandering over to Mojo, he looked up at his old friend and asked if there was any Ent-draught to be found.