Lord of the Rings Fanatics Plaza

I know, what a crappy topic :P

Anyways, it struck me while writing a post that there had to have been some kind of sewer system going on, as they couldn't just dig a hole when living on the side of a mountain which is several levels. Anyone know more detail, is there even any detail? If not, any suggestions as to how it would have functioned? I mean can't just have it run out of drain pipes on the sides as then MT would not be as white as claimed :P

That also made me think there had to be something to bring the water to each level as surely it would take half a day to winch in a bucket from a well on the uppermost level?

I don't think sewers are specifically mentioned, as far as I'm aware. But we are told they have fountains which seem fairly similar in requirements:

"The entrance to the Citadel also looked eastward, but was delved in the heart of the rock; thence a long lamp-lit slope ran up to the seventh gate. Thus men reached at last the High Court, and the Place of the Fountain before the feet of the White Tower: tall and shapely, fifty fathoms from its base to the pinnacle, where the banner of the Stewards floated a thousand feet above the plain. (The Return of the King, Minas Tirith)

And this is all the way up on the seventh circle so that they've managed to get the water there (although I suppose it could come from the moutain side above them) and pump it through a fountain.

We're told later that the city becomes pretty fancy:

"In his time the City was made more fair than it had ever been, even in the days of its first glory; and it was filled with trees and with fountains, and its gates were wrought of mithril and steel, and its streets were paved with white marble" (The Return of the King, The Steward and the King)

So it's not just singular fountain they made many of them around the city thus water was plentiful and they had skill to make the fountains

So while we're not told explicitly that there is a sewer system (although someone feel free to prove me wrong on this if there's evidence elsewhere!) I think it's fair to infer that a sewer system could have existed. Although I think, and my Roman history is poor, that they had fountains but perhaps not sewer systems designed for human waste?

Lotta farmland outside that city, no? I jest, but Numenor and Gondor (it's in the name) were good enough builders in stone that there shouldn't be any problem getting rid of waste, even so far as the aesthetics go.

Cities have also been built on hills for a long time. While I don't personally know how all of them did it (something about the groundwater table being more counterintuitive than the layfolk may think?), and I don't know how or if Tolkien imagined it going for Minas Tirith, any easy solution would be the mountain range just at their back. Again, builders in stone such as they were could very simply get all the water they needed transported from a snow-capped mountain range. It's obscene how much water there is in those.

@Romeran, Roman cities had robust sewer systems. Unless the learning has changed since I was in school, progress in sanitation was one of the most valuable things Rome got from their Etruscan heritage. The degree to which it was all public does a lot to make up for the mental disconnect. Pooping in your own home is a modern luxury, and without it a lot of the technologically complicated aspects just wash away.

I don't recall Tolkien ever broaching the subject of waste, or sewers in Gondor, or anywhere else. In general, there isn't much interest to read about the bowel movements of historical figures. So it's filed under a part of everyday life that we assume everyone does...such as breathing, or blinking. Are we for sure the Peoples of Middle-earth had eye-lids? I don't recall there being any mention of any Elf blinking?

I think we just assume the people of Gondor had to relieve themselves daily and therefor had some system to deal with or dispose of waste. A long time ago, watching the show "Worst jobs in history" I learned most medieval castles bathrooms were just an empty stone room with a hole that went beneath the castle. And it would be some poor schmucks job to shovel it out before the methane and stench got too bad. Urine, at one time, (not sure about now) was important in the tanning process to make leather. Plus, Pelennor fields was farmland before it was a battlefield.

That's always been my assumptions, but as recording a person's bowel movements isn't an interesting topic for people to read and the fact there are giant spiders, dragons, dead faces lying in murky ponds, an angry willow-tree who enjoys groping hobbits...it could be just as likely to assume there was no need for sewers. People's waste magically disappeared in a puff of smoke that smelled of elderberries.

Edit: simul with Elenhir

Elenhir wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 11:03 pm @Romeran, Roman cities had robust sewer systems. Unless the learning has changed since I was in school, progress in sanitation was one of the most valuable things Rome got from their Etruscan heritage. The degree to which it was all public does a lot to make up for the mental disconnect. Pooping in your own home is a modern luxury, and without it a lot of the technologically complicated aspects just wash away.

Makes sense, honestly I just googled it quickly and one article (likely clickbait) seemed to imply otherwise, I didn't spend much time on it, but I didn't want to claim that [Fountains] => [Sewers] only to be proven wrong by a direct contradiction

@Elenhir Poor bloke who really has to go and has to run from the top level down to the fields :P

@Boromir88 I know it is not to everyone's taste to read about sewer systems, but stuff like that fascinates me, how they irrigated, provided fountains with water and disposed of sewage. It is a massive engineering feat given the time and the technology available. In London people used the Thames and that lead to the "big stink" which then forced them to develope the sewers they still use to this day. But yes, I am totally a behind the scenes kind of gal, I like to figure out how things fuctioned as it makes it so much more real if there is an actual explantion as to how it could work, even if it is fantasy :P That actually reminds me that as a teen I read a sci-fi story of the POV of a worker that worked in sewer "plant" where it was their job to shovel sh*t

@Winddancer,

Well, perhaps you will take pride in learning that the closest reference we get (besides there being bathrooms/washrooms in Bree and Tom's house) is probably in Mordor, as Sam exclaims:

"It smells like - well, I wouldn't like to say. Some beastly hole of the Orcs, I'll warrant, with a hundred years of their filth in it." (The Two Towers: Shelob's Lair)

Sam being a gardener and all, probably familiar with what shire smells like. And he seems to imply on his journey into Mordor, at some point he stumbled into an orc outhouse.

@Boromir88 - you'd be surprised by the amount of interest in people's bowel movements from a history of medicine perspective and from a biographical perspective. Yes, we historians are queer folk.

Regarding the original question about Gondor's sewer system, how the system was set up would depend on the location and the size of the settlement. The water supply and drainage system would be easier to set up in Pelargir (a city inspired by Venice) than in Minas Tirith for example. Looking at the responses of more knowledgable lorists than myself, I don't think Tolkien thought about this question when he was imagining how Gondorian cities would look like. That's OK, he had a lot of other things on his plate.

Concerning Minas Tirith, perhaps Rome's or Constantinopole's water supply and sewage system could be used as an inspiration. A city that size should at least have a decent aqueduct... Hold that thought... Isn't it weird that in the siege of Minas Tirith Tolkien never mentions any attempts of cutting off the city's water supply? That's among the first things you do in a siege, cut off supply lines. This would be a perfect time/place to mention an aqueduct. So strange that he doesn't do this...

I have to admit there was also an alterior motive for asking, being a minion and all. My thought was also potential access points (or escape). Not a very nice route, but definitely something that has been done in our history :P And given the sheer size of MT and how many lived there, there just has to be drainage pipes of some kind to let out the rainwater at the very least, though I really hope the sewer pipes were contained as dang that would be smelly :P

Well, Windy, if you're looking for how to integrate the lore into your roleplay, my rule of thumb for others is to just do better than Peter Jackson did. With sewers, that's real easy, and you've got a lot of room to flex that creativity. As long as you don't make a sewer run underneath the largest river in the world from one side to the other, your interpretive addition should pass muster.

Dammit..

Gondor's plumbing is going to be Numenorean in origin, so perhaps an art learned from the elves, and probably Scandinavian in efficiency. Far more problematic is hobbit waste disposal. Bag-end has no back door. As for Gollum's lake, one shudders to think what might have been floating alongside those fish with bulging eyes...

Omg lol..

Tolkien often compared Gondorian architecture and design to Ancient Egypt, where there were some surprisingly sophisticated disposal systems for the grand palaces etc. I suspect there may have been a tendency to use waste products as manure too - the farming seems to be relatively mediaeval.

Hmm wasn't aware Ancient Egypt had a sophisticated system. Gonna have to look into that. I mean I knew of the roman ones, but kinda figured they were the frontrunners with that.

Winddancer wrote: ↑Sat Mar 05, 2022 8:24 pm Hmm wasn't aware Ancient Egypt had a sophisticated system. Gonna have to look into that. I mean I knew of the roman ones, but kinda figured they were the frontrunners with that.

please tell us what you find! alternatively, @Saranna please tell us more.
sewer systems are one of those things you appreciate more as you experience more of life. a year ago the sewage outlet from our house to the main street sewage pipe got blocked and i had to open up a large iron circle, climb down into a concrete circle, and push a stick into the blocked offending pipe. i succeeded, and with no injury to myself. yet it was without doubt up there in the most horrible things i have ever done (you may imagine for yourself the 'whoosh' and torrent when the blockage unblocked). gotta appreciate the people who invented the idea of sewage outlets. in all the stories of medieval london, the residents upstairs just shout a warning before dropping the contents of the chamber pots onto the street. i heard once that up to the 20th century the populations of cities were only maintained by constant immigration from the countryside - within the city, disease consistently killed a higher number than the new births.

Omg that reminded me when I had to stick my hand (just my hand!) into a sewer to turn off a valve, I just about died! Blargh

I found this: https://www.metrorod.co.uk/about-us/new ... ng-sewers/ and while the descriptions are super short, they do mention so many civilisations that used sewers and some THOUSANDS of years ago! Boggles my mind.

Winddancer wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 9:44 am I found this: https://www.metrorod.co.uk/about-us/new ... ng-sewers/ and while the descriptions are super short, they do mention so many civilisations that used sewers and some THOUSANDS of years ago! Boggles my mind.

Ha! The second item, the Orkney Isles, appears to refer to the 'hobbit holes' of Skara Brae that I pointed to as the inspiration for hobbit holes on the 'inspiration for hobbits' thread. Maybe that solves my concerns with hobbit-hole plumbing. :)