Lord of the Rings Fanatics Plaza

Glad to hear others are also interested to continue reading LOTR. The Two Towers Book 3 has 11 chapters and I was originally going to break it down into 4 weeks. I'm not in any particular time crunch or rush and it sounds like others feel the same? So I'll also put out a 5-week schedule and whichever one works better for you that's the schedule we'll follow.

5-week

Sep. 28-Oct 4: The Departure of Boromir, The Riders of Rohan (30 pages)
Oct. 4-11: The Uruk-hai, Treebeard (43 pages)
Oct. 12-18: The White Rider, King of the Golden Hall (37 pages)
Oct. 19-25: Helm's Deep, The Road to Isengard (33 pages)
Oct 26-Nov 1: Flotsam and Jetsam, The Voice of Saruman, The Palantir (40 pages)

I prefer using the 5 week because I don't want to feel like I'm rushing through it. But either one works for me.

"I have questions. Questions that need answering."

- Gandalf mentions "two powers at work" in the Shadow of the Past, what were they and what influence do they have on the story? (Later on Galadriel speaks of powers as well).
- What role does Providence/Grace continue to play throughout the story? (Especially in the formation of the Fellowship)
- Is fate or luck driving events of the Fellowship?
- Are there different primary "adversaries" in each Book?
- Now the Fellowships has fallen apart. What will happen to them in terms of 'goals'? Do they still believe they are part of something big, or are they just making 'logical' choices?

**Note: If you are a reader joining us late or life got busy and fell behind don't worry! Please feel free to comment on any chapters from The Two Towers Book III in this thread. The threads to The Fellowship of the Ring book discussions are linked below. Continued discussions on any chapter are most welcome

FOTR Book I discussion thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=352
FOTR Book II discussion thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=456

I don't care overly either way I tend to read a minimum of 40ish pages when I was doing Tolkien Tuesdays on my Twitch stream (reading Tolkien as a stream) Stopped doing it not enough watchers but was fun. So if 5 weeks works better that's fine by me.

The reading is no problem, but if there's lots to discuss then I'd like the 5-week schedule best. I'd like to have enough time to discuss every interesting detail that we find!

Do we have questions from the second book that we want to keep in mind? I can't remember collecting them.

We had these from the first that we might want to keep in mind:
- Gandalf mentions "two powers at work" in the Shadow of the Past, what were they and what influence do they have on the story? (Later on Galadriel speaks of powers as well).
- What role does Providence/Grace continue to play throughout the story? (Especially in the formation of the Fellowship)
- Is fate or luck driving events of the Fellowship?
- Are there different primary "adversaries" in each Book?

I just realized that Chapters 1&2 are about the Three Hunters, 3&4 are Merry and Pippin, then we go back to the Three Hunters + Gandalf, and the end wraps up with all of them together again. So, it seems fitting to do the 5 weeks :-)

Thank you @Eamila Bolger, I’ll add those questions to the first post and look through the previous threads for others.

@Boromir88 I'd had this page up since last night and refreshed before writing my post -- it's a good thing! I was going to suggest we do the 5 week one for exactly the "topical" reasons you mentioned.

@Eamila Bolger thanks for referencing the questions! I've been thinking about the "adversaries" one a lot, but those others do bear some examination...

I'm good with 5 weeks for pacing and POV reasons you pointed out!

I'd like to add something to the list of questions. Not really a question, but something to keep in mind.
In Book I we saw a group of friends set out on a journey to bring the ring to Rivendell. In Book II it was a bigger fellowship to help the bearer of the ring go south and bring it closer to Mordor. Their final destination wasn't clear, but their was a short term goal to reach.

Now the Fellowships has fallen apart. What will happen to them in terms of 'goals'? Do they still believe they are part of something big, or are they just making 'logical' choices?

• The three hunters have a specific goal, will they stick to it or change plans? And why?

• Aragorn still has this personal goal: he is heir of Isildur. What could be his plan and does he put this goal on top of his list, or not? And why?

• Merry and Pippin are not in the position to have a goal of their own (or it has to be escaping). But how are they proceeding after that? They were merely companions of Frodo and had almost not even gone further than Rivendell. How do they continue?

• Sam and Frodo are of course the two fellowship members who are still going for the original plan: bringing the ring to Mordor. What are the choices they make?

I'd love to see if we can come with some kind of timeline or other document in which we can see how their choices - or how fate - determine the course of the action and the road they all take. Are 'powers' only at work considering the ring, and is the rest of the Fellowship now dependent of their own choices? Or are they perhaps also 'guided' in a specific way?

Those are really interesting questions @Eamila Bolger -- especially, I think, in light of the way that The Hobbit sort of just swept Bilbo along, and his goals dealt mostly with him... getting out of whatever situation he found himself in.

I think you have just defined the difference between going on an adventure and going on a quest, @Androthelm !

Ha! I hadn't thought about that at all, but it certainly seems to hold true (at least, so far) that Frodo has been more committed to doing, as opposed to Bilbo's being.

I hope to be able to re-read chapter 2 later this week, but here's chapter 1. It's quite a lot already so I decided not to wait any longer posting it

Chapter 1 – The Departure of Boromir

We start this chapter with Aragorn. It somehow seems logical: with the Ringbearer ‘gone’ he is the other main character who has a quest, or rather a task/destination of his own. But soon we get the feeling of hopelessness here. Aragorn doubts just about everything, the fellowship has broken and Boromir dies.
I still think it’s a heartbreaking scene where these two brothers finally seem to get a bit closer to each other and Aragorn – even when he doesn’t know what to do next – assures Boromir that Minas Tirith will not fall.
Such a good thing to have friends who help you back on track. Both Gimli and Legolas are wonderfully pragmatic. ‘Let us do first what we must do.’

The short ‘memorial service’ for Boromir gives me goose bumps. One could almost say that Boromir, dead as he may be, is the main character in this chapter. The title of the chapter confirms that. No longer ‘just a companion’, but someone who will be remembered. I remember when I first read the books, this was the chapter where I finally started to love Boromir. I love how – even when time is pressing – the three take time to grieve and honor their deceased companion.

And then the choice has to be made. Frodo and Sam have made their choices in the end of Book II. Now it’s upon Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas to make theirs.
In the beginning of this chapter Aragorn sees only two ways: to follow what is on his heart and go to Minas Tirith, or to follow and help the Ringbearer.
In the end, the desire to go to Minas Tirith is no longer spoken of. It’s the Ring bearer or the Orcs. There and then the three decide to follow the Orcs.

We never spoke of ‘themes’ in our reading of the first books. But I think ‘friendship’ was a main theme there as well as ‘loyalty, allegiance’. And it is with those themes that the story continues.

I've just finished Departure of Boromir as well, so...

I'm always interested in the way these books are broken up. I know I raised it in the last thread as well, but I think one of the strongest points of this opening (choosing to place Boromir's death after the book break, as well as put us "into Aragorn's head" as it were, for the first time) does a really good job of continuing the urgency of the book before. We see the depth of Aragorn's uncertainty, his self-doubt in the command Gandalf has placed on him, and -- surprisingly enough -- his love for Boromir. I've always been interested in his decision in this chapter to keep the secret of Boromir's failure from the Legolas and Gimli -- If he doesn't tell the other members of the Fellowship, I wonder... Who will he ever tell?

The dirge, too, is powerful -- although I do think Aragorn is a bit rude. He sings verses 1 and 3 of the dirge, and then when Gimli says he doesn't want to sing of the East wind, he says "yeah, we shouldn't anyway" ... dude, if you knew there were going to be three verses, and there's three singers, why on earth did you sing two verses??

I like @Eamila Bolger's comment here on the choices Aragorn faces. Rescuing the Hobbits -- even if those Hobbits don't include Frodo and the Ring -- is of ultimate concern in the moment.

More coming when I get around to chapter two, later this week!

Yay! So happy to find that ya'all are reading the book too! I am way behind, having just started book 2 of Fotr, but I am hoping to catch up eventually. In the mean time, it adds so much to my reading to read all the comments, questions, and thoughts on the chapters I have read so far! Thank you!

Also @Mojo , congratulations on the perfect little "entling", she is adorable and I hope she sleeps and eats reasonable well!

Moving on, we come to our first introduction to the Riders of Rohan. Working through my notes chronologically...

More time is spent on the landscape of Rohan than I remember. Even from the very beginning of this chapter, Aragorn is giving exposition -- on the paths across the land, on which parts are inhabited by the Rohirrim and which only grazed by their cattle and horses.

We move on a little, and get an incredibly important moment in the history of Middle-Earth. Seriously, though -- Aragorn's ability to track these orcs over open fields is incredibly impressive, and Legolas's sight -- not to mention his ability to go without sleep -- are tremendous. It's fascinating to think what the Elder Days must have been like -- if Legolas hesitates to rest, would Fëanor ever?

We also get a number of interesting little tidbits about the orcs they're chasing. It's so interesting -- the way that we see Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli struggling to read puzzles which (spoilers, spoilers) we know will soon be revealed through Merry and Pippins POVs. Aragorn also usually guesses right -- he truly is one of the greatest trackers in Middle-Earth.

Legolas describes the Hobbits as "those merry young folk." This is interesting, imo, in part because the link between Hobbits and Children is made several times over the course of these books, even though -- besides Pippin -- the four Hobbits are of age and adult, in their own communities at least. Do we think that the Hobbits are necessarily more childlike than Men or Elves? They're certainly less grave...

They opt to rest a night, against Legolas's advice. I'm still not sure, after a number of read throughs, if this was the right call or not. On the one hand, yes -- it puts distance between them and the orcs. On the other hand... What would they have even done, if they had caught them? The run of the Three Hunters is definitely an act of hopeless, brave loyalty and love -- not military strategy.

They eat lembas while running. I don't even want to think about the stomach cramps.

Their hope is dwindling, but not, as Aragorn points out, the limits of their toil. And then, as morning rises -- fire in the distance. Legolas sees it, of course, and then sees (and counts!) the Riders and their horses approaching. We are given our first face-to-face contact with the Men of Rohan and...

Eomer is a remarkable character. He is proud, certainly, but brought to peace quickly. He knows more than I remembered him knowing -- about Boromir and the rhyme -- and even remarks, interestingly, that Boromir was "More like to the swift sons of Eorl than to the grave Men of Gondor" which is, I suppose, a compliment? Maybe not one he should have dropped right in front of Isildur's heir, though.

I hadn't realized, incidentally -- that Eomer is only riding with the men of his own household. I knew he was hunting orcs against Theoden's orders, but they don't even have the forces of the Eastemnet with them. Also, Eomer's household is over a hundred men. Big house.

Moving on, since I have to run to dinner -- Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli are disrupted at their camp that night by the arrival of an old man. Gimli thinks it's Saruman, but Aragorn isn't sure. A question to be asked, moving forward: Who was it?

On The Departure of Boromir/The Riders of Rohan

I find the immediate mindset of Aragorn is that he is wrong, that his leadership is folly, and that Gandalf was wrong for choosing him even as he goes to find Boromir, he is plagued with doubt the entire time.

It's Legolas and Gimli that snap him out of it it basically by forcing him to do something else and even after that he still falls to this doubt quite often and eventually, the doubt begins to pervade Gimli and Legolas though Gimli suffers from it physically where Legolas does not.

And there are external forces at work for that they blame Saruman for it which is quite interesting to me, considering it seems to be their ability to run on a far easier rod the Emyn Muil.

As well for the Powers at work in this one we can clearly see the power of Saruman at work as mentioned above as well the power of legend especially in the Riders of Rohan, when the riders are speaking with the Three hunters more than once they mention are we in legends? I see it especially when Aragorn draws Anduril and Leglas and Gimli even go 'HOLY SHIRE BATMAN." I think this is the first time they see him and he truly LOOKS the part of a king even though they've been traveling four four days as swiftly as they can.

As for fate/luck I would argue perhaps it is sheer will that is driving the fellowship at this point, the primary adversary in the Departure of Boromir is really doubt, and perhaps time to me while in Riders doubt does still play a major roll but I am starting to get a sense of Sarumans powers being put forth where as yes his tokens where in the Departure of Boromir, but they weren't really the thing that was slowing down the fellowship in that chapter.

@Eamila Bolger thank you for that question about the other "goals" and paths for people after the breaking of the Fellowship. It has me thinking of each Fellowship member. I think answers will become clearer the further we get in the read along, but it does have me think a lot about the loss of Gandalf.

Losing Gandalf was more than the fantasy trope with the loss of an older mentor figure. Aside from Frodo (and maybe Sam, since he's attached to Frodo at the hip) Gandalf's "goals" as an emissary sent by the Valar, are very much tied to the main path of the Ring. When trying to put back my "first time" reader cap, Gandalf's importance isn't better known until his return as Gandalf the White. There are some small hints in the Council of Elrond that this fellowship was meant for Gandalf, as this will be his "greatest" task in all his deeds of the time. But I don't think I find out just how much Gandalf meant to the fate of Middle-earth until his return. So, at the time of his loss in Moria, it's more than the fantasy trope with the loss of the mentor figure.

It seems to be a precursor for the breaking of the Fellowship. Gandalf's built as a figure, in The Hobbit, and in Book I of FOTR, as someone when he's around things will work out. There will certainly be trials and difficult situations, but Gandalf "can do a lot in a pinch" and when he's around he'll figure out something. The loss of Gandalf symbolizes the breaking of the Fellowship and now at the end of the Fellowship/beginning of TTT where will the hope for the quest come from?

I think it starts with the separate goals and paths after the breaking. As the Fellowship was constructed, maybe the paths/fate of the members weren't all so closely tied to Frodo and the Ring? They are important events of the time, but only minor to Frodo's quest (Aragorn says something similar in The Riders of Rohan). What role does "Fate" play in the story? The entire Fellowship was not "meant" to follow Frodo to Mordor. It plays out with the debate about who follows Frodo or Boromir at the end of FOTR. And as it turns out, the breaking of the Fellowship feels like it was forced upon them by Boromir's failure, but even going back before that the Fellowship was debating who would follow Frodo or Boromir?

I'm about finished with The Riders of Rohan. I was going to write some thoughts on The Departure of Boromir. But everyone has brought up my thoughts and feelings when reading the chapter this time. Excellent points.

@CHAOS It's Legolas and Gimli that snap him out of it it basically by forcing him to do something else and even after that he still falls to this doubt quite often and eventually, the doubt begins to pervade Gimli and Legolas though Gimli suffers from it physically where Legolas does not.

That's what I was thinking about too, in The Departure of Boromir and where I'm currently at in The Riders of Rohan. Aragorn seems to be in a funk where he's doubting his choices since Gandalf's death. Legolas and Gimli really stand out in helping pull Aragorn out of it.

So we all notice that doubt in Aragorn, don't we? It makes me wonder: is he merely stating a fact that he has been making the wrong choices? And accepting that making mistakes is just something we all do? Or is he really depressed by it and seeing it a a sign that he is not fit for his task? Is he doubting his choices or also his calling and himself?
Because when we see how he openly introduces his real name to Eomer, after first calling himself Strider (in our language is 'Stapper', the one who makes (lots of) steps), there is no doubt or fear there. Even Gimli and Legolas are surprised. Has he fooled us with that doubt?

Chapter 2 - The Riders of Rohan
Yes, like @Androthelm says, there is lots of description of the landscape, isn't there? We've seen that before in Book 1 when the hobbits were on their way together. It's almost as if Tolkien uses those descriptions to make sure we readers realize what a long and exhausting journey it must have been. And how they - if we speak in terms of goals - were going further and further away from Gondor...
I clicked that link by the way, in your post. When I had quite something written down here already. And it opened not in a new tab but in this same window. I nearly freaked out but fortunately my text was still there, lol! Our kids listen that 'song' a lot.

I really love how those 'Horsemen' who are seen as 'dumb' by some, know lots of the old lore, even when they call it legends. And how not just Eomer but also others have this knowledge ready. It must have been quite a story to listen to, for Eomer!

Something I had completely forgotten about thanks to the movie, is that evening/night near all the dead orcs and riders. The three hunters have not found the hobbits and it's getting dark, so Gimli wants a fire and there they seem to loose the sense of urgency. Their conversation almost sounds like they are three friends having a beer during a weekend hike in the woods. It's almost... relaxed and serene, apart from the brooding feeling that they are so close to Fangorn. Such a contradiction to their haste before. They have reached their goal for now: the group of orcs. But they couldn't be satisfied and they know that Merry and Pippin might still be in danger, if they are alive. Are they trying to ignore that for this moment? Just resigning to the fact that they cannot do a thing now?

And then: the old grey man and the sudden loss of the horses. Poof, gone is that 'serenity'. As they mention themselves: they are not out of trouble yet.

@Eamila Bolger that's a good point about Aragorn's indecision about his leadership. I made a note at the end of Departure of Boromir, the speed Aragorn sets off at after making his decision...

'Yes,' said Aragorn, 'we shall all need the endurance of Dwarves. But come! With hope or without hope we will follow the trail of our enemies. And woe to them, if we prove the swifter! We will make such a chase as shall be accounted a marvel among the Three Kindreds: Elves, Dwarves, and Men. Forth the Three Hunters!' Like a deer he sprang away.

I think you can read Aragorn's thoughts that way. There might be some doubt in his head about his decision making/leadership, but after listening to Legolas and Gimli, once making a decision he quickly "springs" into action.

@CHAOS I was interested in their blame of Saruman there as well. Tolkien is often talked about as someone who developed a "soft" magic system or something like that, but I think it's clear that in-universe people (or at least learned people) have a clear understanding of what Wizardry looks like -- fewer flashes and fireballs (though Gandalf is partial to the spectacle) and more power over heart, mind, and perception.

@Boromir88 interesting thoughts as well on the degree to which this is Gandalf's "objective" in Middle-Earth. I think it's also important to remember that he has only been in Middle-Earth since the Third Age, hasn't he? The only existential threat to Middle-Earth that he has been present for (in this form, anyway) has been Sauron's post-Last Alliance schemings.

@Eamila Bolger I think there's a general trend in LoTR of doubt, even among the very wise. When Gandalf was around in The Hobbit he always made the right calls -- it was only the foolishness of not heeding his advice once he left that got Thorin into the captivity of the Wood-elves or saw... Thorin again, throwing Bilbo out and threatening to kill him. But in FoTR he was hesitant, both before and during Moria -- and now Aragorn is tense and self-doubting too. The stakes are much higher than the quest for Erebor.

Also, since I'm just typing as I scroll through the thread, I'll respond to Boromir again and say that Aragorn's language in that last quote reminds me a bit of Eomer's remarks that they are living in a time of Legend. The Chase of the Three Hunters almost sounds like a ballad already, doesn't it?

The Riders of Rohan

Interesting chapter, since we get into the head of Aragorn (and Legolas and Gimli). When reading this, I'm not even quite finished yet and there's still so much I want comment on, where do I begin? One general theme that's stayed in my head since @Androthelm's reply that the language feels like a Ballad of the Three Hunters, and Eomer saying living in a time of Legend. I can't get out of my head that Alfred Hitchcock would love to film this chapter, a director who was a master of shooting 'the chase.'

Another prevailing theme is the 'greenness' of Rohan. I never quite liked Peter Jackson's portrayal of Rohan's open fields, because he made the decision winter/war time Rohan he wanted it to be bleaker and grimmer. So, he purposefully went away from the "fresh green" feel and grass that Legolas talks about in the beginning of the chapter. However, after reading this chapter again, there is a prevailing 'emptiness' and shadow covering Rohan that even gets into the hearts of the Three Hunters. Aragorn and company describe it as the "will of Saruman." That will gives speed to their enemies and puts weariness in their hearts. Gimli says it's more his heart is weary than his limbs.

...No moving thing could be seen. Often Aragorn wondered that they saw no sign of beast or man. The dwellings of the Rohirrim were for the most part many leagues away to the South, under the wooded eaves of the White Mountains, now hidden in mist and cloud; yet the Horse-lords had formerly kept many herds and studs in the Eastemnet, this easterly region of their realm, and there the herdsman had wandered much, living in camp and tent, even in winter-time. But now all the land was empty, and there was a silence that did not seem to be the quiet of peace.

I love Tolkien's descriptions of the lands our heroes are travelling through. And I also now understand PJ's creative decision to portray a grayer, bleaker Rohan on the brink of war. Despite it being a change from the green fields Tolkien describes, portraying the emptiness and silence in the land on screen would be tricky to do with the fresh green hills that were shown in The Shire. Aragorn sums up my thoughts on this chapter the best:

'I wonder what is happening in this land!'

@Boromir88 I hadn't ever considered the different portrayal of the Riddermark in the movies. I really need to rewatch the movies, since it's been a few years and now the books are fresh in my mind. I think there's also probably some impact of the degree to which you have to be more blunt in movies. We get the sense from the narration and Aragorn's musings that something is wrong, but that eeriness has to be much more heavy-handed if you're doing things in film.

Moving on, I've read The Uruk-Hai

It's interesting that we begin by recapping the end of FoTR again, this time through Pippin's eyes / his memory. The actual scene of Boromir's fall is much shorter than the films -- but then, we've talked before about how Tolkien didn't really write fight scenes.

Pippin, like Aragorn, has a surprisingly rich internal life. He feels awful for being dragged along like a piece of luggage, wishes he weren't here, finds himself useless -- and hopes Strider will come along to collect him.

We also get a good look at the developing politics of the orcs. I'd forgotten -- there are actually three parties here, the orcs of the Mines who have somehow slipped around Lothlorien, a small delegation of uruks of Mordor, and the uruk-hai of Isengard, and all have their own opinions here. We also see what little the orcs know of the Ring...

"What are they wanted for?" asked several voices. "Why alive? Do they give good sport?"
"No! I heard that one of them has got something, something that's wanted for the War, some Elvish plot or other. Anyway they'll both be questioned."
"Is that all you know? Why don't we search them and find out? We might find something that we could use ourselves."
"That is a very interesting remark," sneered a voice, softer than the others but more evil. "I may have to report that. The prisoners are NOT to be searched or plundered: those are my orders."
"And mine too," said the deep voice. "Alive and as captures; no spoiling. That's my orders.

This issue of orders is interesting. The power structures are rigid, but the orcs don't seem to submit to them naturally. There's a double hierarchy of power (Ugluk cutting peoples heads off) and fear (the distant power of Lugburz/Isengard).

I also wonder if the "orc-liquor" has any relationship to miruvor, the "elf-cordial" they were given in Rivendell. It certainly seems similar -- albeit fowler.

Pippin is dozing and dreaming as he runs -- and he has a vision of Strider stooping behind them and running in chase. It's funny -- this could be right out of chapter 2 -- but then later (once he's left a bit of an intentional trail) Pippin doubts himself and says that if anyone survived they probably went east, with Frodo. But Merry is awake and Pip's hands are unbound -- so the Hobbits are certainly learning to handle themselves as well.

More chaos among the orcs as the Riders begin to track them. Most of the northerners flee, as does the party from Mordor -- but they return and continue to bear westward with the Isengard uruk hai. Ugluk is remarkably scornful of the Nazgul -- and Grishnakh says he needs to be put in his place. Once again we see two power structures competing: the momentary might-authority of Ugluk and the longer term fear-authority of the Nazgul and Sauron. After Grishnakh essentially says that the Nazgul are above Ugluk's pay grade, Ugluk suggests that Grishnakh has been eavesdropping where he shouldn't be and that Mordor wouldn't appreciate that -- but I'm not sure he's right. I almost wonder if most of the orcs of Mordor do have a firmer sense of the dark magic of Sauron, living under his authority, especially when contrast with Saruman's orcs who are mostly familiar with Sharku's machines.

Now we see the race from the other perspective, as the orcs spur themselves on to escape into Fangorn even as the Riders close in. Once more, Pippin doubts himself.

He wished now that he had learned more in Rivendell, and looked more at maps and things; but in those days the plans for the journey seemed to be in more competent hands, and he had never reckoned with being cut off from Gandalf, or from Strider, and even from Frodo. All that he could remember about Rohan was that Gandalf's horse, Shadowfax, had come from that land. That sounded hopeful, as far as it went.

Here, I think, we're seeing a different sort of Frodo's "I wish it hadn't happened in our time," almost fused with Sam's preference to just follow his betters -- Pippin feels woefully underprepared, but nevertheless a tremendous burden has been placed on him -- he has no choice but to fulfill his task.

Rumors seem to come more easily out of Rohan than facts: the rumor that Rohan paid a tithe to Mordor in previous chapters, and now Ugluk's fears about the skill of the Rohirrim:

But these Whiteskins have better night-eyes than most Men, from all I've heard; and don't forget their horses! They can see the night-breeze, or so it's said.

Grishnakh here, too, seems to sum the theme of this chapter well: He asks if Merry and Pippin are: "Enjoying your nice rest? Or not? A little awkwardly placed perhaps: swords and whips on one side, and nasty spears on the other! Little people should not meddle in affairs that are too big for them." and here, too, we find that he is searching for the Ring: maybe he does know more than he should, after all? At very least he has met Gollum, since he recognizes the noise that Pippin makes.

Once more, destiny seems to take a hand: the arrow which stops Grishnakh killing both Merry and Pippin "was aimed with skill, or guided by fate, and it pierced his right hand."

And finally, though no news of the capture of the Hobbits will ever come to Mordor or Isengard, the smoke of the burning orc-corpses "rose high to heaven and was seen by many watchful eyes." Who, I wonder, saw?

Not to hog the thread, but here are my notes on Chapter 4: Treebeard

Immediately, there is a change of pace. They are not only heading into the woods, but heading "deeper and deeper into Fangorn." Fear of orcs fades, replaced by "A queer stifling feeling... as if the air were too thin or too scanty for breathing."
It almost feels like we're back in the Old Forest, huh? Although Pippin is reminded instead of home:

Pippin wrote: It reminds me, somehow, of the old room in the Great Place of the Tooks away back in the Smials at Tuckborough: a huge place, where the furniture has never been moved or changed for generations. They say the Old Took lived in it year after year, while he and the room got older and shabbier together -- and it has never been changed since he died, a century ago. And Old Gerontius was my great-great-grandfather: that puts it back a bit. But that is nothing to the old feeling of this wood. Look at all those weeping, trailing, bears and whiskers of lichen! And most of the trees seem to be half covered with ragged dry leaves that have never fallen. Untidy. I can't imagine what spring would look like here, if it ever comes; still less a spring-cleaning.'

Merry, though, comforts him -- this is no Mirkwood, no home of "dark black things." It is just... tree-ish.

They climb a hill, just as they did in the old Forest, to get above the tree-tops... but this time, it works better. The wood almost looks pleasant, and Pippin "almost felt [he] liked the place."

Enter Treebeard. Neckless, Troll-like, Bark-skinned and seven-toed. I want to say that the cave troll in Mazarbul has too few toes... Can anyone confirm that? At any rate, he does not like Merry or Pippin much at all: They look like orcs, but then he likes their voices and does not wish to be hasty. Here, that slow movement saves their life. At any rate he is not quick to trust: he doesn't tell them his own name for himself, and thinks them hasty in telling him theirs. As a small note, he also says that "Elves made all the long words: they began it." This is just a sweet little note -- a reminder that language is an elvish invention, hence "Quendi" as their first name for themselves: those who speak with voices.

He asks them for news, anyway, and brings up Gandalf -- and the Orcs, and Saruman, who he calls "young Saruman", which I've always liked. He also says that Gandalf is "the only wizard that really cares about trees,", which feels odd. Does Radagast not? Does Treebeard just not know Radagast? But if he doesn't, then does he only know Gandalf and Saruman? Or the Blue Wizards, perhaps? No -- it seems easier to say that for some reason, Treebeard doesn't consider Radagast to really care about trees.

He also corrects their grammar: He will not do anything with them, so long as by with what they mean is to them. Treebeard does have a bit of the schoolboy about him, doesn't he? What with the lists, and the grammar, and so on.

He also does Celeborn sort of dirty, suggesting that they have gotten behind the times. That being said, he does suggest that Fangorn -- like Lothlorien -- is a perilous place, and that they are lucky to ever get in or out. There are, as he says, Ents and things which only look like Ents. There are dark things in the wood...
And, at last, somebody makes the connection to the Old Forest. Surprisingly, Treebeard knows what that is, by that name.

Treebeard remembers ages past, when the Elves first woke the trees. They were always eager to speak to things, he says. Quendi indeed. There's tragedy here, and as much as he seems to tease the elves for singing only of things which will never come again, he too sings of that which is lost.

They come then to Wellinghall, and drink the ent-draught. It seems to just be water -- albeit enchanted water, since Treebeard gives us a clearer look at "magic" in LoTR than we get from anyone else, save Gandalf, when he makes the waters (and the trees around them) glow.

They tell Treebeard their story (sans Ring) and he has some interesting thoughts. Clearly the world is changing again, but for now he is not caught up in it: Not on anyone's side, because nobody is on his side, not even the Elves. This is a fascinating wrinkle -- although Treebeard does thank the elves for "curing us of dumbness," he still does not feel that they are truly on the side of the Ents. Why?
And yet... Treebeard is not inactive. He admits that he has been idle, and has let things slip. No longer!

Thank god, also, for Merry, who paid attention in Rivendell and is able to give Pippin some exposition on just what Isengard actually is here. I honestly think the simplifying of Merry and Pippin into essentially the same character is a loss of the film's -- Merry's age comes out here, as he's teaching his friend.

They spend some time with Bregalad, Quickbeam, who seems to be something of an Ent radical. He has already made up his mind: they must march. And then... they wait. They wait. They wait. Three days of an Entmoot, and then everything changes.

I understand why PJ changed this so much, I really do -- but man, in shifting it, making the decision to march on Isengard a gut reaction to suddenly realizing that the orcs were cutting the forest, so much is ruined about this moment. Treebeard makes it clear: they have been under attack for a long, long time, and this desire has been slowly building in their hearts. This isn't a Chamberlain appeasement-party situation: this is the dam, finally burst.

The chapter ends in dusk and moving trees, and Pippin seems halfway dreaming again: Night has come to Isengard.

For some reason, reading TTT seems so much less familiar to me than FotR and I’m so glad to be re-reading it.

I think you all covered my thoughts on the first two chapters for the most part so I’ll skip right on though I want to mention that I loved the introduction to Rohan and the descriptions of the landscape, the hunt across the plains and meeting the Rohirrim. I had completely forgotten that the Men of Rohan had such keen eyesight!

The Uruk Hai
I really enjoyed reading Pippin's perspective. He is really quite clever here. First, untying his hands and then guessing at what Grishnakh was looking for and using it against him.

@Androthelm - Thanks for your points about the orc hierarchies/factions. I found this interesting to read, too. It gives us a rare glimpse into the “other side.” I have to say I always rather thought the orcs of Mordor would have had more knowledge about Sauron and his magic as you say.

Treebeard
Honestly, I loved this chapter and part of me wants to read it again because I feel like there’s actually so much we could unpack here. Treebeard is full of stories and knowledge and history and whenever we encounter such a character, there are so many interesting details I wish I had time to delve into.

I did find this bit funny:

’We always seem to have got left out of the old lists, and the old stories,’ said Merry. ‘Yet we’ve been around for quite a long time. We’re hobbits.’

Quite a long time by hobbit standards but not by Entish or Elvish ones!

I wondered the same about Radagast v. Gandalf and caring for the trees. Is it because Radagast just became so interested in the birds and beasts he sort of forgot about the trees?

Treebeard says the Ents decided quickly to march on Isengard, quicker than he expected. Treebeard himself seems to slowly come to terms with the fact that something bigger is going on throughout the chapter until he reaches the inevitable conclusion that something must be done -

’But if we stayed at home and did nothing, doom would find us anyway, sooner or later. That thought has long been growing in our hearts; and that is why we are marching now. Now at last the march of the Ents may be worth a song. Aye’, he sighed, ‘we may help the other peoples before we pass away.’

Overall --
To me, this chapter and even the previous one, shows how adaptable hobbits are. They go from being orc-captives to entering a strange forest and meeting strange beings called Ents and they sort of just go with it. Sure they don’t have much choice but they deal with it all with flexibility and pretty positive attitudes.

It is also interesting that the Ents and the hobbits have in common though one is hasty and the other is not. They share somewhat similar world views - they want to be left alone to their lives and only seem to be spurred into action when there is no other alternative.

I can only agree with you, @Elaena Targaryen, it's so much fun to reread! It's like meeting an old friend and catching up!

The Uruk Hai
I love Pippin's perspective here. He shows maturity that we miss in the movies. Hoping for Aragorn to come and find him, but realizing that this might mess up the bigger plan so that he should probably not hope for it.

Question: I do wonder about the group of orcs and Uruk Hai. As others already notices, there are three groups and the Uruks seem to be 'leading'. But why are they together in the first place? Who summoned them there if their leaders are not the same? Where the orcs from Sauron and from the north 'accidentally' around while the Uruks were really chasing for a hobbit? That wonders me. And are the Uruks in the majority that the others reluctantly listen to them instead of going their own way? The others ask legitimate questions here, about why they are going to Saruman and why Saruman seems to have his own army. Yet they don't return, but go further north anyway.

Aw... the heart of the Hobbits rose when they stepped on the grass. <3

The three hunters found it amazing that these orcs could run so long and fast, but I find it amazing that Merry and Pippin can! That orc drink surely is something!

Question: I am a bit confused when Grishnákh 'returns'. I had noticed how he was stepping away during a fight, but not realized that he was actually completely gone. Where did he get his group of orcs (with the red eye on their shields) from in such a short time and how did he leave the group, gather this new group and return when the others were running so fast???

And then the two hobbits are free and off. And start talking... like hobbits do. 'Master Took, cousin Brandybuck...' I love it! That hobbit character is used well by PJ later on, when we see Merry and Pippin as 'hosts' in Isengard to receive their 'guests' after the battle there.

It is no wonder that it's Merry who decides to go into Fangorn Forest. He was, after all, also the one who felt 'familiar' in the Old Forest as the Brandybuck spend time there sometimes. We will see what happens next, my lunch break is over and I won't be able to read the next chapter until this weekend on a road trip ;-)

These were kind of the 2 chapters I wanted to get to the most in the read along because a while ago a member in a different thread (I forget who) pointed out that the movie's portrayal of the Ents was all wrong. So I was waiting with great anticipation to get to the Treebeard chapter. This time of year is always some of the busiest of the year so I've fallen a little behind. But my Sunday is completely free so I'll be able to catch up. Thank you for continuing the discussion.

I like in The Uruk-hai how we go backwards a few days to start with Pippin's perspective of the events from Boromir's death and their capture. So it's almost like a flashback that Jackson loved (and effectively made use of) in the movies.

One relatively quick comment about the the orc-liquor that @Androthelm brings up. It's not just the drink, but there is orc-medicine as Merry and Pippin are healed in "orc-fashion":

...Then he smeared the wound with some dark stuff out of a small wooden box. Merry cried out and struggled wildly.

The Orcs clapped and hooted. "Can't take his medicine," they jeered. "Doesn't know what's good for him. Ai! We shall have some fun later."

But at the moment Ugluk was not engaged in sport. He needed speed and had to humour unwilling followers. He was healing Merry in orc-fashion; and his treatment worked swiftly. When he had forced a drink from his flask down the hobbit's throat, cut his leg-bonds, and dragged him to his feet, Merry stood up, looking pale but grim and defiant, and very much alive. The gash in his forehead gave him no more trouble, but he bore a brown scar to the end of his days.

I like the experience Tolkien takes the hobbits through of healing in elf-fashion vs. orc-fashion. Elf-fashion seems like it's a spiritual healing. It gives them added strength, will, endurance when drink miruvor or eat lembas. However, it's more than physical healing, it's spiritual as well. There is no nasty crash afterwards, there is no negative side-effects. Orc-fashion does the trick and "works quickly," but it reminds me of our modern medicines/big pharma. Modern drugs don't that don't treat/cure the underlying illness, they simply mask the symptoms. They work, but it's only physical healing to temporarily cover up the pain. When the orc-medicine wears off there is a very nasty "crash."

Neither Pippin nor Merry remembered much of the later part of the journey. Evil dreams and evil waking were blended into a long tunnel of misery, with hope growing ever fainter behind. They ran, and they ran, striving to keep up the pace set by the Orcs, licked every now and agan with a cruel thong cunningly handled. If they halted or stumbled, they were seized and dragged for some distance.

The warmth of the orc-draught had gone. Pippin felt cold and sick again...

Sundays like that are a blessing, aren't they @Boromir88 :-D I finally had time to read too, this afternoon. Almost finished Treebeard and loved every bit of it so far. Hopefully I get time tomorrow to finish it and write something about it. Next week is going to be very busy but the week after all our family has autumn break and we hope to either spend it in the mountains of Austria or, if our country gets locked down again (we are on the brink of it...), at home. Either way I'll have lots of time to read!

Now properly caught up and I'll have time later in the week to comment on chapters 5 and 6, I want to rewind a bit and return to Chapters 3 and 4.

- What role does Providence/Grace continue to play throughout the story? (Especially in the formation of the Fellowship)
- Is fate or luck driving events of the Fellowship?

Those questions stood out to me when reading The Riders of Rohan, but particularly The Uruk-hai. I got to thinking the luck it must have been for Merry and Pippin to escape. As Eomer sounded very certain that no orc got out alive and they saw no captives. Then in The Uruk-hai we get hints that there is perhaps another power at work, or is there?

An arrow came whistling out of the gloom: it was aimed with skill, or guided by fate, and it pierced his right hand. He dropped the sword and shrieked..

The hobbits remained flat on the ground, as Grishnakh had left them. Another horseman came riding swiftly to his comrade's aid. Whether because of some special keenness of sight, or because of some other sense, the horse lifted and sprang lightly over them, but its rider did not see them...


Then the final line of the chapter: but the smoke of the burning rose high to the heaven and was seen by many watchful eyes.

Luck feels like it's a force, particularly in the circumstances of Merry and Pippin's escape. What's really interesting to me though, is perhaps that good fortune would have never came to be if it wasn't for Pippin's prior planning and use of wits! Decisions that characters make prior could change their luck and alter fate. Bilbo sparing Gollum as an example 'may rule the fate of many' and Frodo makes the same choice later to pity and spare Gollum. Pippin makes decisive decisions in this chapter (getting his bonds loosened up, brief escape to leave the elven broach, fooling Grishnakh into thinking he had the Ring) that perhaps alter his and Merry's fate. Without those prior decisions, maybe they would not have been so lucky where a well aimed ("or guided by fate") arrow didn't strike and disarm Grishnakh? Fascinating!

Treebeard

It was good to read this chapter and get a fresh picture of the Ents in my head after so long of not reading the books or watching the movies.

I like the opening of the chapter and Pippin's description of the feel of the forest, reminiscing of the Old Took's home and how it's gone so many years unchanged. Yet, it's also quite different from Mirkwood, and I forgot that!

For some backstory of what I particularly loved. When The Fellowship was coming out in theaters my dad had the books and said "hey if you want to go see this movie, you should read the books first." When I did see the Fellowship in theaters I was still reading the first book, I was right around Bree. By the time The Two Towers came out the next year I had finished all 3 books.

And every time I read this chapter I get all the first time reader feeling that I got almost 20 years ago. I think that's probably why I was very disappointed about the Ents in the movies. I understand the decision making to put the focus on the battle of Helm's Deep, it is a movie afterall. But I get hit with the exciting and joyful thrills all over again when the Ents start marching and singing: To Isengard, To Isengard and Treebeard's soliloquy "we likely will go to our doom. The last March of the Ents." Howard Shore's music was perfect for that scene, but it can never capture the same feeling when I read this chapter.

Marvelous pacing. The tension build throughout because Treebeard's motto is "don't be hasty" and we get Pippin and Merry's commentary thinking, well what can these Ents really do? They don't like being roused. Ah, but when staying with Treebeard we get that brief flicker of what they can do if they're roused. Then as Pippin says "but he bottled it up again." Several days pass waiting, Merry and Pippin are away with Quickbeam and so we don't know what's happening. And suddenly as Tolkien describes "the dam burst." Reading To Isengard, to Isengard and The Last March of the Ents (going back to one of @Androthelm's comments that this also feels like a ballad) I'm basically giddy all over again.

Treebeard

I can say 'yes' to a lot that is already said about this chapter. Here's my little bit extra.
That pacing is exactly what came to mind with me, @Boromir88. The funny thing is: Tolkien himself is far from hasty in this chapter. There are certain 'rules' in writing where you should not write too much. Tolkien always seems to be a good exception. He takes so long to just tell that two hobbits are entering a forest, meeting a speaking tree and awake something in these living trees that makes them want to join the fight.
But it IS so much more than that. By entering this whole new world inside Middle Earth, the two seem to step out of the story for a short time. Urgency doesn't seem to be there as much as it was before. The two enjoy resting, being hobbits and getting to know their new friends Treebeard and Quickbeam.
Just like in Lothlorien and with Tom Bombadil. Still seeing the links between the books here!
Every part seems to have this kind of a safe haven, a place to step out and come to rest. This time it is only Merry and Pippin though, who get this time to breath and rest.
It takes some time for them to start missing their friends and wondering how they are doing. Just when they realize how different this world is from theirs, their longing starts.

And then the Ents awake and arouse and are off. I love Treebeards remarks on the young ones who are now full of energy and want to march and sing, but will think again later that night ;-)
But also the sadness that they may be walking to their doom. That is an extra layer that I missed in the movie.

Is it just me, or is the end of the chapter a bit weird and abruptly? 'Night lies over Isengard', said Treebeard.
Sounds like he is in the middle of a conversation, or at least not as the end of chapter. No cliffhanger or conclusion. I'd have expected something extra added that remark, like 'We need to wait now' or 'The morning will tell us what to do.'

We are a week late with our schedule, or have most of you continued with the next two yet? I have a week autumn break now, so hope to continue reading tomorrow.

Sorry that it's me posting again...
I am trying to round up these chapters and had a look at all the comments that were made before. One thing stood out for me: the comment about Radagast that both @Androthelm and @Little Bird Lail made.

I have tried to find some information about Radagast. It is said that he cared about herbs, animals and mostly birds. Trees are plants as well, so it would be strange to conclude Treebeard thinks Radagast doesn't care for trees anymore. The word 'anymore' says that something was there before, but is not now.

My thoughts are these: Radagast didn't travel much, it was said. Not as much as for instance Gandalf did. It is possible that before Lord of the Rings starts, he just staid on the borders of Mirkwood in Rhosgobel. This position might have been chosen to keep an eye on Dol Goldur.
When the last White Counsil was held in 2851, Radagast 'lent' his birds and beasts to Saruman as spies to find the Ring. He is also sent by Saruman to find Gandalf, but after he has done so, he says he is going to return to his home. That makes me consider two options:
1) Radagast never traveled except when he went to Isengard to aid Saruman when he didn't know yet that Saruman was evil. He didn't pass through Fangorn though, so Treebeard doesn't know him and therefore doesn't name him.
2) Treebeard has seen Radagast teaming up with Saruman and therefore concludes that they are on the same team. That leads to the conclusion that both wizards don't care for trees anymore (since Saruman is letting his orcs fell so many).


Did anyone have time to look at the questions I asked before?

Question: I do wonder about the group of orcs and Uruk Hai. As others already notices, there are three groups and the Uruks seem to be 'leading'. But why are they together in the first place? Who summoned them there if their leaders are not the same? Where the orcs from Sauron and from the north 'accidentally' around while the Uruks were really chasing for a hobbit? That wonders me. And are the Uruks in the majority that the others reluctantly listen to them instead of going their own way? The others ask legitimate questions here, about why they are going to Saruman and why Saruman seems to have his own army. Yet they don't return, but go further north anyway.

Question: I am a bit confused when Grishnákh 'returns'. I had noticed how he was stepping away during a fight, but not realized that he was actually completely gone. Where did he get his group of orcs (with the red eye on their shields) from in such a short time and how did he leave the group, gather this new group and return when the others were running so fast???

@Eamila Bolger, I finished 5 & 6 over the weekend, but will have no problem pushing the schedule back a week. October is one of my busiest months, also the month I go broke because my entire family is born in this month, that includes some brothers-in-law as well I'm the only non-October birthday. Anyway, I finished 5 & 6 and will share my thoughts on them this week. Then go on to 7 & 8 next week.

Still on chapter 5 over here but don't wait, I'll catch up and be back eventually!

I am working on catching up (got behind due to extra struggles with finding property and dealing with the break in at my shop) So I've only finished Uruk hai but half finished Treebeard today May get it and the next chapter up together.

So I like the idea that yes orcish medicine is very similar to the elf-cordial. I like the Boromir88's point about the elf medicine healing the spirit as well and orcish medicine being closer to big pharma... There is a crash after it and I noticed that as well

I also really enjoyed that this is where the hobbits really start coming into their own. They have to by their reckoning get away or get word to their friends if they can that they are alive and even then it's not a guarantee that they are getting rescued (As mentioned with the lorien leaf) We also really see them really rebound and keeping to the character of hobbits (the whole Cousin Brandybuck line made me just think these buggers could almost be home in the Shire) I feel like it's also another case of showing us the resilience of hobbits which does play to the luck. More in this case in an over all arch of it's great that it was a hobbit that found the ring and is carrying the ring becasue look what these hobbits can actively bounce back from.

As fpr the three groups @Eamila Bolger I feel there is a good chance that Mordor and Isengards group were likely together or Mordor was sent as soon as Isengard started looking, I'd assume due to secrets slipping when Saruman is using the palantir, where as the Northern orcs, are legitimately hunting the entire fellowship and from I understood the Northerns sort of ran into the Uruks and they just wanted to get their revenge and the hobbits were likely the easiest targets and was safer than going and trying to fight the three hunters that were left.

Hey, finally some time to share my thoughts on The White Rider. Although, I think I have more questions this chapter raised than comments.

I think some of @Eamila Bolger's questions get partially answered in this chapter. Regarding Radagast, I think part of it is he was a bit of a slacker. He seems to me that friend, who is good at heart and has so much potential, but could do so much more good if they just had the drive to use their potential. But Radagast (like Bombadil) wants to gather moss. The difference between him and Bombadil is Bombadil isn't a messenger of the Valar who was tasked with aiding the people of Middl-earth against Sauron.

Something that's curious about Gandalf, is even though it's established Radagast's specialty is herbs and beasts, "birds especially are his [Radagast's] friends", I think Gandalf had more respect and admiration at least from Gwaihir. Gandalf had more knowledge and compassion as he states to Denethor "But all worthy things that are in peril as the world now stands, those are my care." (ROTK: Minas Tirith). Radagast may be friends with birds, nature...etc and indeed may even care about them because he has an honest and good heart, but I think it's right to ask: What is Radagast actively doing to help his friends and "all things in peril" as the world now stands? I can see where Treebeard would exclude Radagast (if he had known about Radagast, which I think is a reasonable assumption). Radagast may truly care, but what is he doing to help all the things he cares about which are now in peril?

Question: I do wonder about the group of orcs and Uruk Hai. As others already notices, there are three groups and the Uruks seem to be 'leading'. But why are they together in the first place? Who summoned them there if their leaders are not the same? Where the orcs from Sauron and from the north 'accidentally' around while the Uruks were really chasing for a hobbit? That wonders me. And are the Uruks in the majority that the others reluctantly listen to them instead of going their own way? The others ask legitimate questions here, about why they are going to Saruman and why Saruman seems to have his own army. Yet they don't return, but go further north anyway.

I believe this gets answered in part in The White Rider. We see Grishnakh call Saruman "dirty" and "treacherous" in the previous chapters. At some point Gandalf says Sauron is aware of the Ring leaving Rivendell, plus the number and make up of the company. With this information I think Sauron must have sent out his own group of orcs (led by presumably Grishnakh) to track down the Fellowship's movements. Gandalf speculates that the Fellowship would be heading to Minas Tirith and Sauron's greatest fear is a mighty individual trying to use the Ring against him. He is also aware Saruman must be after the Ring because he's captured 2 of the members, and against Sauron's orcs orders, the Uruk-hai were ordered to take them to Isengard. Even if they don't have the Ring, Saruman will try to find out from them where it is, thus as Gandalf says, Saruman is a "double traitor." Which Sauron is now aware of:

'Also they have filled themselves with new doubts that disturb their plans. No tidings of the battle will come to Mordor, thanks to the horsemen of Rohan; but the Dark Lord knows that two hobbits were taken in the Emyn Muil and borne away towards Isengard against the will of his own servants. He now has Isengard to fear as well as Minas Tirith. If Minas Tirith falls, it will go ill with Saruman.'

Thanks @Boromir88 ! That does make sense.

Didn't get a chance to keep reading so I'll post what I have got so far (hopefully I still understand my own notes that were made a week ago).

The White Rider

Great chapter once again. I love how there is so much depth in each chapters. So many layers to find, so many things to unfold.
These are the things that stood out to me:

• Gimli mentions that this wood is lighter than Mirkwood. Gimli wasn't part of the company of Thorin, the Dwarves that traveled through Mirkwood... how would he know? He grew up in the Blue Mountains, right? Hearing about it from his father Gloin wouldn't be enough to know I guess?

• Somewhere it is said: 'The whole fastness of Fangorn'. Is that a typo? Shouldn't it be vastness? (Not a native speaker of English but I thought that fastness has something to do with speed, which would be funny considering that Ents do not call themselves hasty.)

• Funny Gandalf quote here: 'I was talking aloud to myself. A habit of the old: they choose the wisest person to speak to;...' Kind of a hidden insult there... lol! Must remember that for my older days ;-)

• I thought it was funny that Gandalf doesn't know that Sam went with Frodo, while he can tell so much about what is on Sauron's and Saruman's mind. It helps us though, to understand how Rohan and Minas Tirith have become the centre of the conflict.

• When the three hunters need to let go of Merry and Pippin, they get this advice from Gandalf: 'That is not the road you must take.' There is a task for each and everyone of them. 'Go where you must go, and hope.'
  The task of the Fellowship was to accompany the Ring-bearer. Now that this task has gone, there is a new task for each and everyone of them. No coincidence, there is a goal. I like that.

• We were wondering about Aragorn's doubts in the previous chapters. Gandalf seems to know about that too. He reassures Aragorn that he has made the right decision. Aragorn can let go of his doubts now, and focus on his destination.

• So Galadriel knew that Gandalf was still alive, since she sent for him?? Once again it occurs to me that the Istari and Elves seem to have another agenda that is not always clear to the 'lesser' people. How do we see Legolas in this? As an Elf but not as gifted as Galadriel and Elrond are? He seems to be 'seeing' sharper than others, but mainly in the real world. Not in other dimensions.

On to the Golden Hall!

Time for some comments on The White Rider and King of the Golden Hall...

The White Rider

I think it's Aragorn who comments that one thing hasn't changed with Gandalf, he "still speaks in riddles." This chapter does feel like there are many questions that get answered, and the unknown riddles from chapters 1-4 get tied up. What happened to the hobbits after the orcs were destroyed? Who is the old man they've seen at night? If they find the hobbits what will be their next task? Gandalf's speaking is almost is if he's not actually there, it's in riddles and vague metaphors about things happening in Fangorn that have not for a while. Or Saruman will find himself in trouble soon, but the three Hunters don't get any precise answers. Like @Eamila Bolger, I chuckled at Gandalf's comments about talking to himself.

Going back to the Fellowship of the Ring. We have Chapter 5 "A Conspiracy Unmasked" where answers about where is Frodo going and who are the conspirators get answered. Book II, Chapter 5 "The Bridge of Khazad-dum" the riddle of what is Durin's Bane is revealed. Now Chapter 5 "The White Rider" Gandalf is answering in riddles and they all find out what happened to Merry and Pippin. If I really want to get crazy, The Hobbit's fifth chapter is "Riddles in the Dark"

Eamilia Bolger: Gimli mentions that this wood is lighter than Mirkwood. Gimli wasn't part of the company of Thorin, the Dwarves that traveled through Mirkwood... how would he know? He grew up in the Blue Mountains, right? Hearing about it from his father Gloin wouldn't be enough to know I guess?

That's something I was wondering about too, because in a previous chapter, during their hunt for Merry and Pippin there was a mention that even a "dwarf of many journeys, like Gimli" gets weary from their long chase. It stood out because I don't think we know just where Gimli went, but it implied that even before joining the Fellowship he was used to traveling and journeys. I agree, I don't see how he has visited Mirkwood before? Unless maybe on their journey from Erebor to Rivendell? I believe that is where Gloin and Gimli came from, as they had brought a message from Dain.

And a quick comment, like Legolas' contrast of being in Fangorn and then seeing Rohan/Meduseld. In Fangorn he says he feels like a child for the first time since leaving Mirkwood. Then we get a contrast with a glimpse at the 500 years of history in Rohan, the building of Meduseld during Brego's reign. To mortals it feels like an ancient time ago, but Legolas feels old again.

King of the Golden Hall

Now we come to Theoden's hall and we meet the King of Rohan. It's actually 2 minor characters that are the most interesting to me.

Hama, a rather ordinary character but plays the part of a "Fool." He messes up as a doorwarden and permits Gandalf in with his staff. So Theoden demotes him to be an errand runner:

'That may be. I will do as you ask. Call Hama to me. Since he proved untrusty as a doorward, let him become an errand-runner. The guilty shall bring the guilty to judgement.'

Hama takes that to mean that Eomer is free and arms him. Eomer comes and Theoden is surprised wondering why in the blazes is Eomer offering him a sword. Hama messed up again!

'It is my doing, lord' said Hama, trembling. 'I understood that Eomer was to be set free. Such joy was in my heart that maybe I have erred. Yet, since he was free again, and he a Marshal of the Mark, I brought him his sword as he bade me.'

Silly, Hama. Eomer and him were meant to be brought to Theoden for judgement, Hama giddily thinks that means Eomer's free. Hama plays the "Fool" part here, but he is probably my favorite minor character because shows simple common sense judgement:

'The staff in the hand of a wizard may be more than a prop for age,' said Hama. He looked hard at the ash-staff on which Gandalf leaned. 'Yet in doubt a man of worth will trust to his own wisdom. I believe you are friends and folk worthy of honour, who have no evil purpose. You may go in.'

The other is Grima. I'm so used to everyone (as Gandalf says, everyone except Theoden) calling him Wormtongue, that I actually forgot Wormtongue is a title. His name is Grima, but he is "the Wormtongue." Throughout the chapter is reference Grima and snakes "forked tongue." "down on your belly snake," "see Theoden, here is a snake." Snake often being a symbol of wisdom, but also an "evil counselor." The advisor to King John in the cartoon version of Robin Hood is a snake. (Probably my favorite Robin Hood adaptation to be honest ).

How much was Theoden's aged state and weakness caused by Saruman or was it Grima's "crooked" counsels?

I had forgotten about that @Boromir88, but you are right: it was mentioned that Gimli traveled a lot. I looked back in the Council of Elrond and there it says that Gloin (and probably also Gimli) lived at the Lonely Mountain. 'Gloin had much to tell of events in the northern regions of Wilderland.' Originally they were from the Blue Mountains, but they had established in the Lonely Mountain after the defeat of Smaug. He had lots to say about the grandson of Bard ruling Dale. He could also tell about Grimbeorn the Old holding the High Pass and the Ford of the Carrock. On their way to Rivendel they must indeed have traveled through Mirkwood somehow... or it would have been a hell of a detour.

After stating that I had no time to continue reading, we had a lovely quiet Sunday afternoon and I ended up reading the next chapter anyway.
Loved Háma as much as you do Boromir88!

The King of the Golden Hall

At first I thought I wouldn't have much to mention here, because the beginning of the chapter is how I remembered it. But as I went on, new things came up.

• What is it that Legolas sees? A glint of white: far away perchance the sun twinkled on a pinnacle of the Tower of Guard. And further still, endlessly remote and yet a present threat, there was a tiny tongue of flame.'
  Is that the 'red star' Frodo saw from Rivendel? The eye of Sauron?

• It touched me that he mourns Boromir and speaks of the young that die. If anyone knows what Denethor must be going through (even though he doesn't know it yet), it's Théoden. It's the world upside down.

• Look here! The movie goes a complete other way. No, Théoden is not afraid. He doesn't choose to hide: he choses to ride out to Isengard!

• And look! It's not Merry who carries the King's old armor, but it's Gimli. Little details that I haven't remembered earlier but that I see now.

• Also great: the Rohirrim choose Eowyn to stay and lead the country. And Gandalf gets great honor and a wonderful title in the Mark from King Théoden. Those Rohirrim know how to do things well!

Helm's Deep

So, I've come to the Battle of Helm's Deep and again there is so much that I have forgotten. And after reading it, I actually think some of Jackson's decisions weren't from way outside the ballpark as I often complained about. Ok, there's no conceivable way for Haldir to be teleported with an army of elves to Helm's Deep, but Gimli and Legolas discuss wishing having some dwarves there and Legolas a "100 Mirkwood archers." No wonder where Jackson got the idea!

I think it was a mistake to have Saruman's entire force to be Uruk-hai though. I guess that was just used for increased "tension" but I wish they had included the men of Dunland. I know they get a seen of pillaging and burning Rohan earlier, but I would have liked for them to be included in the battle. Unless I missed it, I actually don't think the numbers of Saruman's force was mentioned in this chapter? Where does the idea of 10,000 come from?

I also always understood the decision to have Eomer arrive with Gandalf, instead of introducing a new character, Erkenbrand, who then would disappear.

One of my favorite quotes is in this chapter, Theoden: "But I will not end here, taken like an old badger in a trap.". The inspiring sight of a renewed and free Theoden is wonderful and plays an impact on the morale of the Rohirrim in this chapter that I think is missing from the movies. They are surprised to see Theoden 'healed' and I love Theoden's description:

'You thought I remained in Meduseld bent like an old tree under winter snow. So it was when you rode to war. But a west wind has shaken the boughs.'

Another thing I forgot is Gimli's importance in the battle. He saves Eomer, Gamling wants his help to set up rocks and block breaches. In Legolas and Gimli's counting game, Aragorn thinks Gimli will surpass Legolas:

'If he wins back to the caves, he will pass your count again,' laughed Aragorn. 'Never did I see an axe so wielded.'

Everyone has such wonderful and interesting thoughts and many of you have stated similar thoughts I had. Since I'm still behind I'll keep it short - don't want to derail the rest of you.

Eamila Bolger wrote: ↑Sun Oct 25, 2020 9:54 am

• Somewhere it is said: 'The whole fastness of Fangorn'. Is that a typo? Shouldn't it be vastness? (Not a native speaker of English but I thought that fastness has something to do with speed, which would be funny considering that Ents do not call themselves hasty.)

"Fastness" can also mean a place of refuge like a stronghold or fortress.

Chapter 5. The White Rider
Favorite quote that made me laugh from Legolas about the hobbits - “Being pleased with his skill, he then sat down and quietly ate some waybread! That at least is enough to show that he was a hobbit without the mallorn-leaf.”

I have to say I always wondered why Gandalf didn't just say "hey guys its me Gandalf!" and has this dramatic entrance other than to keep up the suspense of not knowing the identity of the old man for the reader.

Chapter 6. The King of the Golden Hall
Isn't this chapter just full of drama? Starting with the uncertainty of the Rider's true nature, to the drama of giving up their weapons outside Meduseld, the booting of Grima, Eomer's return and Theoden's recovery. There is all the suspicion on the part of the Riders. It is understandable but they were a lot more rude than I ever remembered them being!

I have to say Theoden might have given him a hard time, but I also loved Hama here! I think he deserves a MVP award for this chapter! First of all, he does not mince words with Aragorn when he is being very insistent about leaving Anduril outside the Golden Hall - “‘This is the house of Theoden, not of Aragorn, even were he King of Gondor in the seat of Denethor.’” Hama: 1, Aragorn: 0

Here are more awesome things Hama does this chapter:
- lets Gandalf bring his staff in
- sets Eomer free/helps him return
- brings Theoden his sword
- suggests Eowyn rule while Theoden is gone ( )

The last one in particular stood out to me as I got the impression that Theoden was being a bit dense when he asked who would rule in his stead and who the people trust. Hama says the people trust the House of Eorl and Theoden says but I can't spare Eomer. Finally Hama saves the day and just suggests Eowyn. Case closed. Theoden should be thanking Hama not scolding him.

My final highlight of this chapter was Gandalf once again advising someone to take pity on one who was wronged. I couldn't help thinking this a bit of Nienna's wisdom (or folly depends who you ask I guess).

Hey good to see your posts here again, @Little Bird Lail . No worries, even though I think we've lost some people I plan to read on. If nothing else in my head I'm reminded of the former plaza where there were many lurkers following lore topics. If anyone is behind I still hope everyone feels free to comment on past chapters.

Kind of tied in with the halfir archive, something that I've been thinking about is not to make the lore forums feel like a "mausoleum." Yes, it's good to pay respects to the former plaza and what got us interested, but I don't want Lore topics to feel like "that's it, the end." At least that's my opinion on the bigger picture, for this thread I don't want anyone feeling just because this week I plan to read and comment about chapters 7 & 8, that comments about all previous chapters are closed and done.

Well, time to get ready for work, but your post gave me some ideas about Hama and Eowyn that I hope I don't forget because I want to get back to something you wrote...

The last one in particular stood out to me as I got the impression that Theoden was being a bit dense when he asked who would rule in his stead and who the people trust. Hama says the people trust the House of Eorl and Theoden says but I can't spare Eomer. Finally Hama saves the day and just suggests Eowyn. Case closed. Theoden should be thanking Hama not scolding him.

Little Bird Lail wrote: ↑Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:24 am I have to say I always wondered why Gandalf didn't just say "hey guys its me Gandalf!" and has this dramatic entrance other than to keep up the suspense of not knowing the identity of the old man for the reader.

Yeah, me too.

And yes to the spotlight on Hama. His is the way of common wisdom that Tolkien so likes to point out is often true wisdom.

Boromir88 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 05, 2020 11:00 am The Riders of Rohan
there is a prevailing 'emptiness' and shadow covering Rohan that even gets into the hearts of the Three Hunters. Aragorn and company describe it as the "will of Saruman."

'I wonder what is happening in this land!'

sorry everyone if i am jumping back in time, i have not always been able to keep up with the pace of the reading. but i really like this point. This first meeting on the borders of Rohan so perfectly sets things up for the encounter in the Golden Hall of Edoras, where the name of the Lady will be invoked to dispell the spell of emptiness cast by the words of Wormtongue.

Going back to @Little Bird Lail's point on Hama giving Theoden the idea to place Eowyn in charge...I had the same "Yay! Go Hama!" reaction, because I agree Theoden's response that he can't spare Eomer seems rather dense. Like he's completely forgotten Eowyn and we know she's been present with attending on him during Grima's evil counsels. There were Ruling Queens of Numenor, but in Gondor rulership always passed to a male heir if I'm not mistaken. I don't think there was any consideration to have a Ruling Queen, or Ruling Steward be a woman. I think the same is the case in Hobbit society, as Pippin inherits the Thainship, since he's the oldest male despite having 3 older sisters. (Gollum's "grandmother" is an interesting situation that stands out).

Like you, I think it's Hama's best moment to put Eowyn forward as the leader the people will follow. We don't see it yet, but Eowyn may not be too pleased with that charge, believing that she's being put into a "cage." A question for later, is Eowyn disobeying because of a desire for Aragorn or for the battlefield?

@Chrysophylax Dives sorry everyone if i am jumping back in time, i have not always been able to keep up with the pace of the reading. but i really like this point. This first meeting on the borders of Rohan so perfectly sets things up for the encounter in the Golden Hall of Edoras, where the name of the Lady will be invoked to dispell the spell of emptiness cast by the words of Wormtongue.

Welcome back and an excellent point. I finished reading A Road to Isengard and will share my thoughts a little later. But I think it's the main theme that seems to always be present throughout Book III. From what Saruman's doing in Fangorn, what Grima's doing to Theoden in Edoras, the Isen being dried up and then finally when they reach Isengard we see precisely what Saruman has been doing to this land. It all goes back to Aragorn's quote in The Riders of Rohan.

Emptiness... A great point indeed! Let's keep that in mind until we are in Book VI at the scouring of the Shire! Let's compare Saruman's ways here in Rohan and Isengard to what he is doing to the Shire when we come to it.

@Boromir88 I've been trying to look back a the numbers of the army, but all I read is 'very large'. Then I looked it up on this website: https://en.everybodywiki.com/Middle-ear ... _and_hosts where I found this information:

In The Two Towers Merry states "... there must have been ten thousand at the very least.".[97] This number is later qualified by Gandalf: "I have about ten thousand Orcs to manage.",[98] that is to say at Helm's Deep, not including other members of Saruman's hosts: "troops on great wolves", "battalions of Men", "half-orcs". The chart above shows that a host can be composed of two armies or, an army and auxiliaries. The chart also shows that an army may be ten thousand strong.

I couldn't find the quotes in my book though, since the references show only a page number and not a chapter and the page numbers aren't the same as those in my book.

Thanks, Boromir88! Good to be back even though my brain is more tired due to RL academic stuff taking up my energy for now.

Boromir88 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 30, 2020 11:21 am Kind of tied in with the halfir archive, something that I've been thinking about is not to make the lore forums feel like a "mausoleum." Yes, it's good to pay respects to the former plaza and what got us interested, but I don't want Lore topics to feel like "that's it, the end." At least that's my opinion on the bigger picture, for this thread I don't want anyone feeling just because this week I plan to read and comment about chapters 7 & 8, that comments about all previous chapters are closed and done.

I 100% agree and I don't mind re-visiting old chapters/threads either. I wonder if you want to put something like your last sentence here in the OP of this thread so people stopping by know they are welcome to rewind us back and comment on old chapters?
---
Everyone has such interesting thoughts! I like this idea around the theme of Saruman's effect on the land and also @Eamila Bolger's comment tying that to the Scouring later on.

My comments on 7 & 8 are brief due to a tired brain --

7. Helm’s Deep
A single chapter that took up a huge chunk of the movie! I am glad the bulk of the book isn't a that. Combat and battles have never been my favorite things to read about.

The feeling of foreboding continues as our Three Hunters plus Riders of Rohan plus Gandalf make their way to Helm's Deep. The gathering enemy and their torches and cries in the night, the storm and the lightning illuminating "hundreds and hundreds" of enemies all made for dramatic reading despite knowing what happens.

This is one of my ultimate favorite final sentences in a chapter so far: “Wailing they passed under the waiting shadow of the trees; and from that shadow none ever came again.”

My question from this chapter is - when I read the following in which Legolas is looking toward Isengard on the road to Helm's Deep, I assumed he was describing Ents in the distance giving us a bit of a teaser of what's in store for Isengard. Anyone else have an thought on this?

“‘I can see a darkness. There are shapes moving in it, great shapes far away upon the bank of the river; but what they are I cannot tell. It is not mist or cloud that defeats my eyes: there is a veiling shadow that some power lays upon the land, and it marches slowly down stream.’’

8. The Road to Isengard
The passage above leads to my next question which is - do you think Gandalf knows or has ideas about the Ents marching on Isengard? Aside from my quote above, we get a few more hints about it before our company reaches Orthanc itself. Do you think Gandalf had some idea what to expect when they arrived?

This chapter features one of my favorite sections from all three books, I think - Merry and Pippin welcoming Theoden & co. to Orthanc and the reunion between part of the Fellowship. A bit of lightheartedness needed amid dark times.

Merry went on a bit about pipeweed and was probably about to go into a long history of it when Gandalf interrupts and tells Theoden he'll never hear the end of hobbit talk on food and pipeweed. While I think Gandalf is right I also wondered if this is a sort of pet passion of Merry's? Of course we know that hobbits are generally fond of food and pipeweed. But we also know Merry later goes on to write a number of texts, including one on Shire Herblore. I know I can get carried away when talking about something I'm very passionate about so I wonder if that seed is already planted (pun intended..) in Merry's brain at this point?

Lailyn wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:23 am Merry went on a bit about pipeweed and was probably about to go into a long history of it when Gandalf interrupts and tells Theoden he'll never hear the end of hobbit talk on food and pipeweed. While I think Gandalf is right I also wondered if this is a sort of pet passion of Merry's? Of course we know that hobbits are generally fond of food and pipeweed. But we also know Merry later goes on to write a number of texts, including one on Shire Herblore. I know I can get carried away when talking about something I'm very passionate about so I wonder if that seed is already planted (pun intended..) in Merry's brain at this point?

:) I like this kind of train of thought (i think it appeals to my inner hobbit). maybe you could answer 'yes' although only by way (of course) of the author. i have a memory that Tolkien writes to Christopher around the time he composes this passage that he did initially have Merry tell a history of pipeweed but decided it had to be confined to the index, which i guess is the first step to becoming a book of the early 4th age in the library of Brandywine Hall (together with the book by Meriadoc and Shire and Rohan names, which includes mathom, which also steps out of an appendix. (i must say that for perhaps the first time in my life, in penning this post i feel vaguely embarassed at my Tolkien geekiness, which is intensified by my felt need to emphasize that it is written from memory that may be a bit off.)

@Eamila Bolger

Emptiness... Let's keep that in mind until we are in Book VI at the scouring of the Shire! Let's compare Saruman's ways here in Rohan and Isengard to what he is doing to the Shire when we come to it.

Yes! And Wormtongue will kill Lotho, leaving only the paler version of himself, Ted Sandyman. But as Frodo says, Saruman was himself serving the will of Mordor. Part of the wonder of these parts of the book, which i did not at all appreciate when i read the story in younger days, is how the terror of the Necromancer (the terror of the Eye and the Ring) is here given a human (even hobbit) face.

Boromir88 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:54 pm King of the Golden Hall

Now we come to Theoden's hall and we meet the King of Rohan. It's actually 2 minor characters that are the most interesting to me...

The other is Grima. I'm so used to everyone (as Gandalf says, everyone except Theoden) calling him Wormtongue, that I actually forgot Wormtongue is a title. His name is Grima, but he is "the Wormtongue." Throughout the chapter is reference Grima and snakes "forked tongue." "down on your belly snake," "see Theoden, here is a snake." Snake often being a symbol of wisdom, but also an "evil counselor." The advisor to King John in the cartoon version of Robin Hood is a snake. (Probably my favorite Robin Hood adaptation to be honest ).

How much was Theoden's aged state and weakness caused by Saruman or was it Grima's "crooked" counsels?

I don't think it was caused by Saruman at all! I know that this is how the movies portray it, but i think in the book it is all about Grima's crooked counsel. As I indicated just above in replying to @Eamila Bolger, i've come to see Wormtongue as a mortal face of the Necromancer (its like Saruman is a wizard imitation of Sauron, and Wormtongue is a mortal imitation of Saruman, and maybe Ted Sandyman a hobbit imitation of Wormtongue). I think the point is that even a mortal wordsmith may make magic - by telling fairy stories, as did Tolkien, or by words of deceit and propaganda, as Wormtongue. But I think this theme is only fully played out in the bit we are coming to, in which Theoden, having been rescued by Gandalf from the mortal necromancer Wormtongue, and then having discovered that fairy-stories (ents and hobbits and the heir of Elendil) may be true, overcomes the enchantment of the voice of Saruman.

(By the way, the name refers not just to snakes but also dragons - there is a comparison to be made of Theoden listening to Wormtongue and Bilbo Baggins talking with Smaug - Bilbo, you will recall, comes perilously close to falling under the dragon-spell.)

sorry for the flurry of posts, everyone. but while you have been reading and talking for months and are now approaching Isengard, I am still on the planes of Rohan, looking towards Edoras. so encouraged by Boromir's words above, i just wanted to comment on the barrows on the approach to the gates of Edoras, which has become one of my favourite passages in LOTR.

“Seven mounds upon the left, and nine upon the right,” observes Aragorn. The allusion is chilling, but easily passed by until you come to this later line in RK: “And now there were eight mounds on the east-side of the Barrowfield.” The hobbits have paused in Rohan on their way home and witness the burial of the old king, Théoden. Aragorn's numerical difference literally points to the tombs of two still living men, the two kings of Rohan we meet in the story.

Here as everywhere, Rohan seems to feel out the mortal side of Necromancy and the fight against it, with death not only the natural end (these are no haunted barrows, as in the north) but even the right choice - better to die than become a Nazgul, but better too to fight and die than slumber at home in peace under the spell of Wormtongue.

@Eamila Bolger thank you for finding the quote about the size of Saruman's army. And actually you won't have to dig much farther to find it. I read it just a bit ago when finishing Chapter 9 Flotsam and Jetsam. A lot of loose ends appear to get tied up and questions after the battle are answered in Chapter 9, when the "Fellowship" is gathered together again. Also definitely, let's keep in mind the changes to the Shire in comparison to Rohan that Saruman caused.

@Lailyn: I 100% agree and I don't mind re-visiting old chapters/threads either. I wonder if you want to put something like your last sentence here in the OP of this thread so people stopping by know they are welcome to rewind us back and comment on old chapters?

Excellent and done. I also put links to the FOTR threads in the OP. :-)

The passage above leads to my next question which is - do you think Gandalf knows or has ideas about the Ents marching on Isengard?

That's something I was wondering after reading The Road to Isengard, but I don't want to spoil it. Gandalf's being rather clever when answering Theoden and one of my notes on this chapter was "Gandalf's been busier than I remembered while he's been gone." For so long I have the movie impression that he simply found Erkenbrand's men (or in the movie's case, Eomer) and brought them to the battle, but the impression in this chapter is he did much more than that. And you won't have to be patient for long to find the answers to just what Gandalf's been up to since leaving Theoden and co.

What stood out for me in The Road to Isengard is this chapter firmly cements Legolas and Gimli's friendship in my mind. Yes, the previous chapter they had their counting game, but towards the end of Helm's Deep, Gimli's been missing. We're with Theoden, Aragorn and Legolas, and Gimli may have made it to the caves but no one knows for sure and Legolas is noticeably worried for his friend. This chapter they strike their bargain for Gimli to go into Fangorn and Legolas the glittering caves. They become BFFs here.

Random question that I don't think will be answered, but I wonder if Gandalf used Narya with Erkenbrand's men? I forgot that they were infantry, and not cavalry as portrayed in the movie, and Gandalf says:

'Your own valour has done more, and the stout legs of the Westfold-men marching through the night.'

Last, but not least, new favorite quote (which I might just be finding every chapter):

The Death Down it was afterwards called, and no grass would grow there. But the strange trees were never seen in the Deeping-coomb again; they had returned at night, and had gone far away to the dark dales of Fangorn. Thus they were revenged upon the Orcs.

Fangorn got their revenge! It has my imagination wandering.

Lovely to see how we are all getting in a flow here! Today is my day off from work, so I'll be READING during lunch ;-)
But first I still have Helm's deep to react to.
And read all the above here ;-)

Helm's Deep

Once again when I just start to think that the movie was quite accurate here, I see all kinds of details (bigger or smaller) that are very different. Still, PJ’s way of telling this story sure helped me to make a better picture of it in my mind. By just reading what Helmsdeep and the Hornbridge looked like, I cannot make a good image of it yet. When it comes to the attack, I thought the movie was pretty powerful and made a bigger impression than reading about it.

Biggest differences of course: no large group of refugee women and children here. Helmsdeep is not an abandoned fortress, it’s a place where a group of Rohirrim normally resides so there is enough food etc. No fallen Aragorn coming later, no Elves coming to the rescue (still Legolas longs for his kinsmen to come) and Eomer is there, Gandalf is going for Erkenbrand instead.
Also it is King Théoden himself who says he wants to ride out and ask Aragorn to join him instead of Aragorn who dares the king to ride out with him.
King Théoden really is stronger than the movie portrays him. I like that!

Very special: Aragorn’s speech not to the Riders, but to the enemy after raising his hand palm up. I had forgotten about that. It takes the focus off other things and gives the King and his men time to mount their horses. Psychological warfare from Aragorn here. Makes me think of some goalies when the match has to be decided by taking penalties ;-)
I do wonder though: if the eastern sky is just getting a bit pale, how on earth would the enemy be able to see a single man raising his hand to ask for parley????

Also special: like @Boromir88 said it's too bad that the movie army was just orcs: I like how in the end some of the men who were on the wrong side, realize they were indeed wrong and find mercy. Hurray to Erkenbrand to show such mercy to the scared men from wilder land. (Although that is the next chapter.)

As for Háma: we'll see something just like that in Beregond later on! I am already looking forward to meeting him! There is common sense to be found everywhere and indeed Tolkien gave men like this a special appearance in his book!

@Lailyn I don't care much for battles either, but I like the layers in this story here, the solo actions and how happy they are at the end to find each other back. As for your question about what Legolas sees: could it be that the 'darkness' is the 'magic' of Fangorn? And that the things he sees moving are indeed the trees?
We should keep a note of everything Legolas sees, it always comes back ;-)

@Chrysophylax Dives Interesting thought about the Necromancer and Gríma. Good to keep an eye on him in the next chapters. I was however wondering: @Lailyn mentioned how Gandalf asks King Théoden to have mercy on Gríma. Would he have done that if this wasn't just a man under the influence of a wizard? Wouldn't Gandalf have known if it was more than that, and given a different advice in that case?