Lord of the Rings Fanatics Plaza

If anyone harrows Hell it is Aragorn, no? He does so by passing under or through the Mountain, on the Paths of the Dead. And he brings out an army of the dead. That is harrowing! (As in plundering, as @Priya noted.)

Hello Chrysophylax Dives

Harrowing of hell, or an emptying and destruction of hell?

I guess this hell of the dead effectively ceased to exist after Aragorn was done.

You asked about miracles in another thread. I know of no power (other than necromancy and the Ring - which Isildur did not possess at the time of his curse) to withhold the spirits of men from departing the World.

Was Eru invoked in the original oath? Was this a case of divine intervention?
I don’t recall that Tolkien provided an explanation.

Aik - I'm curious as to your thoughts here. You say that "The Paths of the Dead" is just a chapter, just a piece of the fabric of Middle-earth, do you mean to say you don't find any particular inspiration behind it? I only ask because, without inspiration or meaning, the whole episode is a deus ex machina that Tolkien would need to use because he wrote himself into a corner and I think he's too good a writer to fall into that trap in this particular spot. I'm curious to your thoughts here.

Priya - You bring up an amazing point, Eru does seem to be the only one outside of necromancy and the Ring, but why does he do it? Certainly there is a pre-existing example of him doing it with Pharazon and his men, but that seems to serve a greater purpose, the Oath of Isildur feels almost petty in comparison.

Maybe it's deus ex machina after all?

Aik - I think I understand better where you're coming from and now that I see how you interpret things it makes sense. Whilst mine is different I still think your interpretation is meaningful and valuable (also as a person who has dealt with Alzheimer concerns with myself and others in my family). Thank you for sharing it.

Hello The Good Hunter

Certainly those of Númenórean descent had some ability to cast spells, as exhibited by the Barrow-blades. But the situation we encounter with the oath-breakers appears to be in a wholly different league. It would be incredible power if Isildur could invoke such a potent spell due to some inherent gift/ability.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the Stone of Erech (brought from Númenor and at which the broken oath was made) was somehow tied into the Meneltarma (and part of the Shrine to Eru). Perhaps it was endowed with some kind of divine power in being hallowed, or perhaps it was dear to Eru? Anyhow, this is just conjecture.

A case of deus ex machina? Maybe!

Priya wrote: ↑Tue May 28, 2024 9:51 pm You asked about miracles in another thread. I know of no power (other than necromancy and the Ring - which Isildur did not possess at the time of his curse) to withhold the spirits of men from departing the World.

Was Eru invoked in the original oath? Was this a case of divine intervention?

Some musing, going nowhere... I guess it probably was something to do with Eru, and the Black Stone of Erech is a nicely singular stone to tie to this affair. And we cannot say this was a direct use of the Ring as Isildur does not possess it at the time of the curse. So we don't have much choice but to look to miracle.

But the oath-breaking is important. Ultimately, I would argue that both the Rings of Power and the Seeing Stones are fairy-tale images of words, that Tolkien renders into visual form the word in its power to enchant and to corrupt. And if we put aside Frodo's quest and Aragorn's return as king, the story in the middle of the book is all about speech as magical corruption - the tale of how Theoden is awakened from the spells of Wormtongue's word-craft and sufficiently recovers himself to face down Saruman at Orthanc, the wizard whose very voice is an enchantment.

We don't have to go into the details of each realm of imagination, but this story of the oath-breakers does seem to perform yet another fantastic rendering of the word as a magical object of power. In this case, the magic of the word is rendered by the fact that it is their given word itself that holds back the spirits of the dead. Given the ways the word is made magical in other places within the story, possibly we only need to associate some odd magic with the Stone of Erech to have no miracle but merely another enchantment of Middle-earth?

Hello Chrysophylax Dives

If Isildur possessed an inherent power (via a magical spell) to curse mortal men, I wonder why he didn’t just curse all men allied to Sauron, leaving others to suffer the same fate as the Dead of the Mountains.

I think the Oath-stone is key. Certainly there must have been a damn good reason for bringing such a massive monolith (and others) from out of the wreckage of Númenor. From the King of the Mountains standpoint, I would have thought that swearing on a stone which only has significance to people other than his own is a bit pointless. At the oath-swearing would he really have believed there was any repercussion if his word was broken?

The Erech stone being a fairy tale item akin to those such as an invisibility cloak, flying carpet, green girdle or a magic ring is an interesting proposition. I note that sometimes, the origin of power imbued into such items is unknown. In other cases, it is based on the might gifted to its creator - ala Sauron and the One Ring. Occasionally though it comes from God or seems to link to Him.

For example:

(a) The magic ring of Solomon in The Dragon of the North

“… it is supposed that an angel gave it to the wise King.” (Andrew Lang’s The Yellow Fairy Book)

(b) The Green Girdle of Sir Gawain & The Green Knight, in wearing it:

“… no hand under heaven that could hew him down …”. (“Gawain” 74.8)


Perhaps the Oath-stones had a divine link - similar to Fëanor’s spoken oath?



… Just some thoughts!!!