Lord of the Rings Fanatics Plaza

I know this will disappoint some of you (and well, make others happy), but I will not be using quotes or using any real official-looking citation because that would take me an entire day and I'm writing this as a way to formulate the thoughts in my head (and its fun). Also not looking to publish this (unless encouraged).

So when I read the "Tale of Adanel," which is immediately after the "Athrabeth" in Morgoth's Ring, I came to the conclusion that Melkor was a complete idiot who caused his own downfall.

Basically in that tale, the first men hear voices from Eru on how to live life. Then when Eru stops sending them messages, a second voice comes (which is interpreted as Melkor) and tells them stuff like "if you build me a temple, I will reward you with some pretty awesome and epic stuff. So do it." And while the first rewards were indeed bountiful and awesome, the rewards began diminishing like some sort of hastily conceived Pavlovian conditioning experiment. Then when men either stop listening to Melkor or offend him in some way, Melkor got very angry, punished them very severely, and treated them like an angry child throwing dolls at a wall. Naturally, the men got terrified and started listening to Melkor again. There's also the caveat that men's lives were shortened because they actually believed in the second voice. Very fascinating tale, please read it (can be found online).

This is where Melkor makes his mistake: Melkor gives them fewer and fewer rewards while I think the punishments continued. In human history, societies that had imbalanced reward and punishment systems self-destructed in the end (this is where if this were an official article I would include paragraphs and pages of examples). So naturally, it should come to no surprise that quite a few of the Men either returned to respecting the first voice, identified the second voice as Melkor, and/or just plain ran away to the West. Thus, eventually Finrod finds them and you can read the Silmarillion if you want to figure out what happened after that (basically in the end Melkor is defeated [spoiler]).

It goes into Melkor's personality that he is destructive. it also goes into his personality that he... doesn't really inspire any real loyalty. During the end of the War of Wrath, there were so many that simply fled or surrendered. If they were truly loyal, they would've fought until the bitter end. I recall Tolkien saying that Melkor, if he had succeeded, would have ended up destroying everything (which I assume includes space and time) including himself. No doubt this same conclusion would've entered the minds of people like Sauron. The pejorative imagery I have of Melkor is that he is a petulant, spiteful metaphorical child.

Now this segues into Sauron and how he managed things differently in the east. There isn't a lot of detail on how differently the East (and South, for that matter) was managed by Sauron. I don't really trust Gondorian sources on this, particularly because it wasn't as if they were constantly attacked by both the East and the South; a lot of the times they were the aggressors. But I would assume Sauron saw the mistakes and adjusted accordingly his management style so that there would be much less defectors from east to west. I see a difference between his second (Annatar) and third age management style which means that he was learning/evolving.

I see more of Sauron giving the Eastern men the illusion of either partnership or a laissez-faire management style. This changes the incentives of "attack the West because I said so" to "attack the West because their richness would greatly help your economy." This makes strategic sense because I doubt Sauron wants to fight a war on multiple fronts with his base of operations smack dab in the center. Further, I don't see a tyrannical, Melkor-type rule because that actually would have made the Blue Wizards' job easier and their contributions would have been more obvious to the West.

Furthermore by the end of the Third Age, when Aragorn was travelling deep within the East, he saw both good and evil men as well as uncovering Sauron's plots and such. This is from Appendix A. The "good" part is striking, because why would Sauron permit any person with goodness in the east? The second operative word being "uncovering" here because that confirms that Sauron was being much more subtle in how he was influencing the Eastern men. I don't think Aragorn would need to uncover a 20 foot tall temple devoted to a heavily-armored giant guy with a ring. I do think he would need to uncover things like whether the pile of tithes towards a happy, plump, prosperity god was being secretly sent towards Mordor, or grabbing a copy of the "5th Codex Edition of Rhun's Tax and Governmental Laws" and discerning it to see whether there were specific provisions in Eastern tax and governmental law that would positively influence the Mordorian economy.

Of course the Blue Wizards probably played a part in all of this. But I'll point out that great change is like dropping a mountain in the middle of the ocean; you can see the waves from far away. We don't see that explicitly in Tolkien's work, besides the possible conjecture that great gaps of time in Eastern assaults were due to their part. But where were the refugees prior to the mass exodus of the eastern dwarves that we see in the beginning of LOTR?

There's also the counterargument that in the Lord of the Rings there were a large amount of Dwarven refugees from beyond the Iron Hills fleeing to the Blue Mountains, showing that Sauron was becoming a bit more of a tyrant at the end of the Third Age. But I'm inferring here that the change in governance was drastic and heavy, marking his planned takeover of all Middle-Earth. He probably saw no need to be subtle then. It sort of begs the question how life was like for the eastern dwarves in the middle of the third age?

Anyways, let's get out of this rabbit hole with a few questions:

1. Some think that Melkor/Morgoth was a far superior threat than Mairon/Annatar/Sauron. But was that really the case given the differences in their governing style?

2. Did Sauron become his own "person"? Did he successfully step out of Morgoth's shadow?

3. What would have happened if Melkor had a more "supporting" style of governing Men?

4. <insert the large amount of questions on the East and South in general>

Any thoughts on this topic?

Eh, I don't know.

I imagine Tolkien created Melkor as a Lucifer stand-in, and thus his interpretation of the Dark Lord was firmly rooted into his understanding of the devil. I don't know the ins and outs of JRRT's thoughts on the matter, of course, but if Melkor's story at all follows the biblical narrative, his desire was not merely to be great, but to be the one in charge - in his case, Eru.

In my recollection of Melkor's story, he fails at being the subtle manipulator the Christian faith acknowledges Satan as, but does not fall to the depths of absurdity that current secular society deems him - a risible fictional figure with horns and a tail.

Perhaps the petulant child metaphor works to an extent. Melkor acts out the rebellion he proposed in song, and finds no joy in his anti-creation. He pouts and whines, then destroys or steals what he cannot control or create. He is an unhappy character, who knows from the beginning that his works will have no value or substance, and that everything he tries to do to upset the Creator's vision will ultimately wither because the Creator wills it so. His doom is to be unchangingly opposed to his creator ... perhaps because he refuses to change. His self-righteousness meant that he dragged others along with him, dragged them into his orbit and corrupted them too, first in the song, and then, spitefully (knowing they would be doomed with him) into the physical world. He tried to destroy all Eru's children, so that the promise in the song would not come to fruition ... he doomed many men and elves, who became bound to his service.

Tolkien's story doesn't fit with the Christian narrative for many reasons, so perhaps I am wrong to assume he meant to link them, but the destructive, 'If I am doomed, then I'm robbing you of your children,' attitude is certainly quite reminiscent.

I remember debating on the OP about which villain was more evil; Melkor or Sauron? Looking back, I believe that was the wrong question to ask. I think your questions get more to the heart of the matter about the differences in governance between Melkor and Sauron.

I think the title is slightly unfair to the power Morgoth held and damage he caused because of it. Then again, thinking about our world, if we elect petulant and spiteful children to positions of power, what damage they could cause having access to nukes and WMDs. It's quite terrifying. Anyway, I just think it wasn't always so with Melkor.

His original fall was from a desire to be the creator, have the powers of creation. Tolkien wrote in The Silmarillion, that Melkor grew impatient with the emptiness of the world, seeking the Imperishable Flame:

He had gone often alone into the void places seeking the Imperishable Flame; for desire grew hot within him to bring into Being things of his own, and it seemed to him that Ilúvatar took no thought for the Void, and he was impatient of its emptiness. (The Silmarillion: The Ainulindale)

Then again, impatience is maybe a word that people associate with childish behavior? Then again, again, perhaps wrongly, because I know countless adults who I'd call impatient. Sauron is noted as being wiser (and I think, more practical) than Melkor:

Sauron, however, inherited the 'corruption' of Arda, and only spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings; for it was the creatures of earth, in their minds and wills, that he desired to dominate. In this way, Sauron was also wiser than Melkor-Morgoth. Sauron was not a beginner of discord; and he probably knew more of the 'Music' than did Melkor, whose mind had always been filled with his own plans and devices, and gave little attention to other things. (HoME X: Morgoth's Ring; Myths Transformed)

Sauron put his power into the Rings, out of a desire to dominate "their minds and wills." I'll get to it a bit later, but Sauron understood the hearts of Men better than Melkor, and why I believe he was more successful in controlling them than Melkor. The Dwarven rings didn't have the effect Sauron hoped, because Sauron didn't understand Dwarves to the same extent he understood men. The Elven rings he never touched or sullied.

2. Did Sauron become his own "person"? Did he successfully step out of Morgoth's shadow?

I would say, yes. I actually would say Sauron had 2 "falls." First Age Sauron's fall, was his attraction to Melkor, which Sauron never thought to challenge while Morgoth was still around and even "adored" him:

While Morgoth still stood, Sauron did not seek his own supremacy, but worked and schemed for another, desiring the triumph of Melkor, whom in the beginning he had adored. He thus was often able to achieve things, first conceived by Melkor, which his master did not or could not complete in the furious haste of his malice. (HoME X: Morgoth's Ring; Myths Transformed)

Sauron was attracted by Melkor, because of Melkor's immense power and ability to effect his plans quickly. However, Melkor's "Fall" is further into nihilism. Tolkien writes that the further Melkor realized only Eru had the power of creation, he didn't have any "plans" anymore, unless you called total destruction of the world and everything in it a "plan."

His sole ultimate object was their destruction... This was sheer nihilism, and negation its one ultimate object: Morgoth would no doubt, if he had been victorious, have ultimately destroyed even his own ‘creatures’, such as the Orcs, when they had served his sole purpose in using them: the destruction of Elves and Men... even left alone he could only have gone raging on till all was leveled again into a formless chaos. (ibid)

Maybe Sauron would have eventually reached this point and followed, Melkor down the slippery slope of nihilism, but he doesn't. After Morgoth's defeat and exile, there is actually a brief period of rehabilitation for Sauron. In Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, Sauron sues for pardon. Eonwe instructs him to return to Valinor to face Manwe's judgement. Sauron does not do this, but that doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't in truth, repenting. (This is why I would like a good 2nd Age Sauron redemption story ). For, at some point, Sauron was put off by Melkor's nihilism and returned to what Tolkien called "relics of positive purposes":

He [Sauron] still had the relics of positive purposes, that descended from the good of the nature in which he began: it had been his virtue (and therefore also the cause of his fall, and of his relapse) that he loved order and co- ordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction. (ibid)

There's a split in Melkor's plans (or maybe even a lack of plans, unless you call complete destruction a plan) and Sauron's, which started out as a positive nature:

Very slowly, beginning with fair motives: the reorganising and rehabilitation of the ruin of Middle-earth, 'neglected by the gods', he becomes a reincarnation of Evil, and a thing lusting for complete power (The Silmarillion: Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age)

I think you could argue (however brief) there was a period in the 2nd Age when Sauron was sincerely opposed to Melkor's nihilism. It was his virtue to reorganize Middle-earth, and "rehabilitate" the damage Melkor caused. However, Sauron has a second "Fall," he relapses (HOME X: Morgoth's Ring). His postive purposes, and desire to undo the damage caused by Melkor, turn into a lust for power. He seeks not to destroy Middle-earth and everyone in it (as Morgoth would have done), but to Rule it and dominate free will (creating the Rings of Power). In Numenor, he starts preaching Melkor worship, but this wasn't out of a desire to free Melkor, or a motiveto have Melkor return, but because he was more practical:

Sauron was not a ’sincere’ atheist, but he preached atheism, because it weakened resistance to himself (and he had ceased to fear God’s action in Arda)..... To wean one of the God-fearing from their allegiance it is best to propound another unseen object of allegiance and another hope of benefits; propound to him a Lord who will sanction what he desires and not forbid it. Sauron, apparently a defeated rival for world-power, now a mere hostage, can hardly propound himself; but as the former servant and disciple of Melkor, the worship of Melkor will raise him from hostage to high priest. (HOME X: Morgoth's Ring)

Ultimately, I think Sauron's goals were attainable in the long run. If not for the destruction of the One Ring, Sauron's forces would have utterly overpowered his opposition. Melkor sought the unattainable, the power of creation, and when he realized that was unattainable his only aim was complete destruction. If Melkor didn't have the power of creation, wouldn't his desire of complete destruction be unattainable too?

@Lirimaer Perhaps. I had forgotten what Melkor was like before he wanted the destruction of everything. It's good that you point that.

@Boromir88 Well now I have to actually use quotes now to the disappointment of some and the joy of others. It's a good thing!

1. At the time, I imagined Melkor as "what-if someone gave Caillou god-like powers." But yes, the references to elected officials who are petulant and childlike applies here too.

You know what's interesting though? I re-read the Tale of Adanel and I have to bring up what Eru defined as being a child, causing me to actually create a new definition in context to the Tale:

"The Voice had spoken to us, and we had listened. The Voice said: 'Ye are my children. I have sent you to dwell here. In time ye will inherit all this Earth, but first ye must be children and learn. Call on me and I shall hear; for I am watching over you.'" Athrabeth, Tale of Adanel Section

"Though we greatly desired to understand, learning was difficult, and the making of words was slow. In that time we called often and the Voice answered. But it seldom answered our questions, saying only: 'First seek to find the answer for yourselves. For ye will have joy in the finding, and so grow from childhood and become wise. Do not seek to leave childhood before your time.'" -Athrabeth, Tale of Adanel Section

Aside from the fascinating implication that there was a human language before elven influence, there are the relevant sections on childhood. So being a child is actually learning and once they find the answer to their questions that's when they grow and "become wise." The process is meant to be a happy one, unlike a lot of the times where we just... become an adult due to circumstances. Eru cautioned not to grow up prematurely.

The second quote is interesting because Melkor sought answers for himself. He wondered why in the void was so empty, causing him to seek the answer (which to him, was the Imperishable Flame). But from my reading, it was not being a child, but "seeking to leave childhood before his time" through his impatience that led him to his path. There was no joy in the finding from what I read. Melkor doesn't seem like a very joyful person, after all.

Sauron is a different case but one could analyze his actions using that second quote from the Tale of Adanel. As you point out, Sauron disliked "all confusion," yet he didn't use the same effort to "seek the answers" on dwarves, and the philosophy of "domination" goes against trying to complete understand people, as the more you understand a person, often times the more you just want to let them be or make sure they're safe (or flat out destroy them if one sees them as a complete cancer to society in extreme cases). More times than not, though, the desire to dominate someone is lessened. Again, I don't see Sauron being a joyful person.

So I'll conclude that both Melkor and Sauron left "childhood" prematurely, and as a consequence, don't feel all that happy. Eru knew this, of course, and thus advised men to not leave childhood before their time. But interestingly enough, Sauron seemed to want to partially return to what Eru suggested that all Men follow. But ultimately he did not, as, at the end, he did not seek to understand why the Valar seemingly "neglected" Middle-Earth, and took matters in his own hands. That is a mistake he made in Eru's eyes.

This opens dark implications and floodgates on whether Elves teaching humans language goes against what Eru wanted and whether or not that was a mistake. That is a different subject (that one day deserves its rightful speculation).