Lord of the Rings Fanatics Plaza

Sorry for long silence, I have not received notification for a lot of these posts. Looks as if the ideas are developing well. How about halfirmoot?

Haha! I like that a lot more :D

This is a wonderful idea, and essential reading for a revitalized plaza!

No problem Saranna! Sorry for the notification fail, not sure why that happened. Are you able to see the "Halfirian Archive" subforum to see what you think of the sample format?

Hi, I'd just like to say that I truly appreciate all that you are doing regarding halfir's contribution to the original Plaza. I think he would be inwardly pleased although he might not have shown how much outwardly. I enjoyed most all the interactions we had (although some of the times, he could be infuriating, lol) but I always respected his diligence, integrity, determination and especially his dedication to the increasing (and often correcting) our understand of Tolkien.
During that time, I was able to use the internet to do a search on him, and found where he worked in Bangkok. I longed to be able to travel there and meet him in person, but alas that was not to be. When he did go into the hospital there, (for a hernia operation iirc), I was able to have a get well card sent to him. But that was years ago, now. As was suggested above, it now appears that most references to his name on the internet are quickly disappearing, so I believe you are all doing exactly the right thing.

Something new about something blue 1 & Something new about something blue 2

Thank you, @Lirimaer!

This may be a silly question, but is there any need / any reason we might want to cache these threads in a place besides the Wayback?

Not silly at all, Androthelm! There are some plans afoot to do just that.

I think that is something that is being discussed. It would be good to have them in a more stable place, but right now it's a matter of figuring out where they could be saved and the best way to save them, since there is some back and forth with different posters.

And I don't know if this thread has been posted, in here yet, but I ran across a Children of Hurin thread awhile back. Any more halfir things I run across during my Wayback adventures, I'll be sure to post in here.

Thanks Dim <3

Thank you @Lirimaer and @Dimcairien Luiniel. The halfirmoot at present consists of @Saranna, @Boromir88, and myself. The three of us would be grateful for any further wayback machine links to halfir posts. However, while we understand that it is possible to make HTLM pages that can be hosted on the plaza from the wayback machine pages, I don't think any of us know how to do this (certainly neither Saranna nor myself). So we may need to request some additional help from people.

@simon just a reminder that both Narv and I are happy to help with the HTML pages where needed (I.e. instances where the wayback “print view” function doesn’t work).

@Tarawen. I would, at the moment, give a cat of queen Berúthiel (had I one to hand) to know what the wayback 'print view' function is.

I don't really wade about in Lore, but I saw the ones above linked via the Plaza Library. I don't know how much the PL was linked with what y'all were doing in Lore, but very much most of the Library's links at 2006 were saved (I can find no links working after that time). I have started (and let lie fallow) a links thread in this forum for it.

Hmm. While I see the reason for keeping such a forum private while you work on it, it makes it difficult to help you. We simply have no idea what you already have, and I am sure no one wants to duplicate work, even in a labour of love. You might like to provide us a list of thread titles you already have and persons inclined to go a-diving could check it before they send you links.

On the other hand, since I appear to be diving ... but again, you may already have all of these.

2009 author list

Carl Phelpstead - Tolkien, David Jones, and the God Nodens

Tolkien's Views of Paganism

Truth or Consequences
Comments on the above

Tolkien and Cambridge
Comments on the above

Anke Eissmann - illustrator
Comments on the above

Hapax Legomena in The Lord of the Rings
Comments on the above

@Lirimaer the threads you have linked that i have opened so far are all from the old scholar's forum. they are not posts started by or featuring halfir.

as to what we already have, well, so far very little. this because we are still working out how to put the archive together - what should go in? and how to put it in? in addition to 'Peeling the Onion' and the three links supplied by you and @Dimcairien Luiniel above, we also have halfir on Malory/Flieger and the Rings of Power - and that is it.

@simon @Boromir88 @Saranna

Here are some results I got from going to halfir's profile and selecting "view 10 last posts"

You can click through the different snapshots of his profile. A handful are preserved here and I've linked the working threads I could find. Note, this is from the "archives" of the Archives. I'll find halfir's profile in a non-archive way later and see if there is anything different to be viewed there.

Some of these are way more halfir intense than others, but I think they all have at least one long post from him. Threads that I've titled tend to be ones where he was more involved.

http://web.archive.org/web/200403041348 ... Position=1

http://web.archive.org/web/200403041353 ... Position=1

http://web.archive.org/web/200403041639 ... Position=1

Letters of JRR Tolkien - 3

http://web.archive.org/web/200410151637 ... Position=1

Tolkien’s intention for Dec 25 and March 25

The Hall of Fire -a speculation -2

(not a thread, but one of the posts here [thread isn't preserved] contains several links to different Tolkien societies. I didn't check them all, but they seem to still work. Or at least exist on the wayback and could probably still be found on the regular internet.
http://web.archive.org/web/200412101259 ... sp?id=2701

The Letters of J.R.R.Tolkien -4

The Dunsinane Dilemma - Tolkien and Shakespeare

I wrote the OED - halfir boasting about getting a copy of George Allen & Unwin: A Remembrancer

Does Tom Bombadil exist in both worlds?

EDIT: and the capture dates of the "archive" Archive profile and the "archive" profile are the same, so I think that's all I can find that way. I guess now it's a matter of trying to click on every possible thread.

@Dimcairien Luiniel : thank you!

Here's a few more things I found. I'll admit that I have not really been reading these threads, but simply copying links to ones where halfir either started or seemed to have several posts.

Now I really should go to bed. :D It is far too easy to get sucked into the wayback.

Various threads from Advanced Lore I think I clicked on most of the threads.

http://web.archive.org/web/201002021158 ... TID=229281

I'm not sure if you said you have "Peeling the Onion" or not, but here you go. This capture of the same thread loads all the pages. It also contains what is likely one of halfir's last posts - April, 2012
Peeling the Onion

Nature of Goldberry

Color Symbolism in Tolkien's Legendarium

Hands -and breath- of a healer -Aragorn a - only the first 2 pages load


Learning Lore -1: LOTR's Minor Characters - Pages 1-3 load


Tolkien and Hindu Mythology - not a halfir thread, but he has a few posts that might be of interest

Had each their proper gem

Master of Words by Words Mastered - formatting his horrid, but you might be able to make sense of it

Creation and "The Word" - not a halfir thread, but he has a few posts that might be of interest

And these three were found via the plaza homepage

Kingship: Visual and Communicative Iconography all three pages load

A Creative Triumvirate

Soria Moria Castle

Also, on a much more somber note, I found the thread that announced his passing. Only the first page loads, but it is something that ought to be saved with any threads of his.

http://web.archive.org/web/201210152255 ... all-please

Ah, I can see where my confusion lay, @simon. I assumed you'd want all good Tolkien lore threads, not just halfir threads. My mistake.

@Lirimaer. The fault is ours because, as you say, the sub-forum that has been set up is in private mode. It is indeed a 'halfir archive,' and I'll add that we have not got far at all in stocking it.

The little list you gave above is helpful.

And now you have the amazingly resourceful @Dimcairien Luiniel on the case, so prepare for incoming!

Wow. I have a sense of philological vertigo! I've spent the last week editing a version of 'Peeling the Onion' supplied to me a year or so ago by @Troelsfo. The links to the wayback machine supplied above by @Dimcairien Luiniel generate an opening post at the bottom of which:

Last edited by @Troelsfo; 19/Jul/2015 at 02:28 PM. Reason: Troelsfo: Adding colouring etc. as halfir originally used

So the 'Peeling the Onion' text that I have lightly edited was not the 'original' but a restoration of the 'original use' by an otherwise invisible humanist scholar. Now I have to revise my picture in the history of textual transmission I have to give when I pen the blurb that accompanies the link to this version of the thread, which oddly coincides with the particular version given by the so-called time machine on the internet archive.org.

@simon @Troelsfo @Narv and everyone - it would be great to re-present the Scholars' Forum even if we could not contrive to continue it.

Which way would you like that done @Saranna?

@Lirimaer if you want to join, let us know <3

@Dimcairien Luiniel @Lirimaer thank you for all the links! Any othe links, ideas and contributions will be most appreciated.

To give a bit of an update on my plan for August-September. I've hit a road block in being able to open any of the other Rings of Power topics, after getting the 1st one. But 'had each their proper gem' was one of the first threads I remembered and started working on editing and should be done with it in the next week or so.

Thanks to KingODuckingham's basic lore archive I added 'Hands and breath of a Healer' to do after proper gems.

@Saranna (and @simon and @Narv),

I think it would be a grand idea to re-create the Scholars' Forum, and think there might be a way to do so.

As has been demonstrated by @Lirimaer above, the Scholars' Forum threads can be dug out using the Internet Archive on archive.org, and I think that the old lore team (Saranna, @Lord of the Rings, @Dorwiniondil, @geordie, and myself) are, one way or another, in contact with all or most of the authors, and I would expect that most of them would be happy to let us re-post their content on this new Plaza.

I wouldn't want to undertake this entirely on my own, but if the old team would agree to join up (and @Narv will let us have a playground), I am sure we can work something out ...

@Troelsfo it is a grand idea. and i have before expressed a wish to see it happen. three thoughts:

(1) how about letting the old scholar's forum posts die and inviting new contributions? at present, with the halfir archive and general interest in old threads we run the risk of making the plaza a mausoleum. what about some fresh air? (even from the point of view of the authors: if one of the old lore team asked me if i would be OK with my 'Tolkien and Cambridge' essay being re-upped I would likely say no, because since i wrote it my thought has developed a lot and i now regard that essay as primitive).

(2) to the extent that you do resurrect the old contributions you run into the issues we are now facing with the halfir archive, namely that the best way forward appears to be for someone with coding skills to work the internet archive source code into a revised in-house plaza version - which is quite doable, but means that any Scholar's Forum lore team should include a couple of coders (or you run into the problem faced by the present halfir archive team, none of whom are coders).

(3) actually i have only two thoughts but the first seems important enough to repeat. rather than just polish the old how about seeing a revised Scholar's Forum as a timely opportunity? The old plaza was born of the days when two books - by Shippey and Flieger - defined Tolkien scholarship and the canon was in the process of construction - as Christopher Tolkien slowly but surely published his father's manuscripts. Today we meet again in a new era. Christopher Tolkien's work has concluded. We are the first who can look at the whole 'Tolkien archive' at a glance. I personally believe we have moved beyond Road and Splintered Light, or at least are in a position to reconcile these two classics. Many varied new threads have been opened up... Surely there are some amazing new contributions waiting to be written for a new plaza Scholar's Forum?

@Troelsfo @simon

Yes to both of you - I feel halfir was a special case, and that we don't want to expend all our efforts on patching up the old. It may even be that the original authors (not me, I'm happy to be republished anywhere, any time!) may feel it redundant to re-use their work. Let's try to persuade and cajole the Old Guard of scholarship and the New to share our new beginning - halfir would have been the first to point out that The Road Goes Ever ON.

As an aside, if you're looking to memorialize halfir's essays into a persistent document, it can include the original online citation, the new re-posted citation as well as its own citation in the document for maximum coverage to attribution. The Chicago Manual of Style does include online forums as citation types, and a bit of extra work on our side on compiling and generating those persistent documents and correllating citations.

https://owl.purdue.edu/owl/research_and ... urces.html

hi @corlisswyn, could you explain how this works?

For example, with 'Peeling the Onion' (which i am preparing for the archive). At present, the archive will consist of a post that introduces two links, one to the wayback machine version of the thread (from 2015) and another to a pdf that contains only (or mainly halfir's arguments).

So, given that, what citations should we add where?
Many thanks.

Hi @simon, I would add the citations in the PDF, as anyone who is using it for reference will likely download it. The citation can be the original link, the PDF, and even at the bottom reference the static link pages.

(its been ages since I've done formal citations :))

Thank you @corlisswyn.

So, @simon I took a quick glance at the PDF for Tom Bombadil, Peeling the Onion, and I had some initial thoughts - the first being a solid table of contents as the PDF is 183 pages, from which the TOC could quickly point out primary essays and then responses to them in order. I'd also recommend some short of early introduction like you are doing for the archive to explain that this PDF is a pull from the website and page numbesr referenced in the text are to forum pages, and something along those lines.

That being said, it would take me a week to read all of that PDF, there's so much good stuff in there. I'd love to chat with you on your thoughts on this more, as I remember halfir and all of the great work he did (and others on the Plaza as well!) for the Lore.

hi @corlisswyn, thanks for this.

the archive post for 'Peeling the Onion' introduces the thread, identifies the transmission through two links, and concludes:

"The two links may be updated, if (a) anyone makes html pages from the archive.org site that we can house on the plaza; or (b) the editing work on the 2011 Word document is completed, or even advanced, and a revised pdf made (because, for example, someone makes a table of contents out of the index)."

As you see, making a TOC is only one of two (or three) substantial jobs (making plaza html pages so we are not reliant on archive.org seems perhaps more pressing). I did consider making a TOC myself, but I have already put more time than I can afford into the editing of the pdf. If you wish to step in the archive team would, I am certain, be more than happy...

On your initial post on citation, I admit that I cannot at present see the wood from the trees and, again, I invite your contributions here as well. The problem as I see it (and as I try to explain in my introduction post) is that, like the Red Book, there is no original copy of 'Peeling the Onion.' The archive.org version from 2015, for example, was edited after halfir's death to 'restore the original.' So it seems to me that all we can provide are the links that make up the archive thread: (a) url of plaza archive post; (b) url of pdf housed on plaza; (c) url of thread link (plaza or archive.org). As all three are already contained in or on the introductory post I think that attributions are covered.

I realize I am brand new but I am sure many will recognize the name, I really hope to see the Scholars essays once again. If at any point we need a domain/off plaza server (I am unsure of the current server set up) I own my own server for work and a convention I run so lots of space and I am more than happy to give Narv (from what I read our new coder/Admin) access to said domain and that portion of my server if that is wanted at all - and would be happy to maintain a domain permanently.

If the server has room for it then obviously it's a non issue, but I started going looking for halfir and I was shocked to see this forum pop up but also very very pleased.

Welcome, Fuin! delighted to see your name!

Please mosey on over to here to continue with this: viewtopic.php?f=18&t=598