Politics in The Shire
“I am in fact a Hobbit (in all but size). ”
-J.R.R Tolkien
-J.R.R Tolkien
Nice read. Thank you.
I would quibble with your use of the word 'aristocrat', e.g.
Also, worth noting that there were lawyers in the Shire.
Also, worth noting Letter 214, which points to the social evolution of Shire customs in terms of a gradual transition from status to contract, that is, the dissolution of unwritten rules of kinship.
I would quibble with your use of the word 'aristocrat', e.g.
'Aristocrat' connotes inherited blue-blood nobility and in England suggests descent from the Norman conquerors. What we have in the Shire is rather the English 'gentry' (so 'gentle-Hobbit' is quite right).Bilbo himself was a very well-to-do hobbit, and Bag End, his hobbit-hole, was the establishment of an upper class gentle-hobbit. In the Shire, the hobbits admired the wealthy and aristocrats.
Also, worth noting that there were lawyers in the Shire.
Also, worth noting Letter 214, which points to the social evolution of Shire customs in terms of a gradual transition from status to contract, that is, the dissolution of unwritten rules of kinship.
Eat earth. Dig deep. Drink water.
Thank you for the comments.Chrysophylax Dives wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2025 8:51 am Nice read. Thank you.
I would quibble with your use of the word 'aristocrat', e.g.
'Aristocrat' connotes inherited blue-blood nobility and in England suggests descent from the Norman conquerors. What we have in the Shire is rather the English 'gentry' (so 'gentle-Hobbit' is quite right).Bilbo himself was a very well-to-do hobbit, and Bag End, his hobbit-hole, was the establishment of an upper class gentle-hobbit. In the Shire, the hobbits admired the wealthy and aristocrats.
Also, worth noting that there were lawyers in the Shire.
Also, worth noting Letter 214, which points to the social evolution of Shire customs in terms of a gradual transition from status to contract, that is, the dissolution of unwritten rules of kinship.
That is a good distinction to make. But some degree of aristocracy (natural perhaps more often then bloodline, besides the Took family of course) was around.
Regarding the lawyer in The Shire (God please not let it be!), one could argue this is apocrypha. That Tolkien left it out on purpose. But thanks for the link.
I shall dig into 214 once I get home, thank you.
“I am in fact a Hobbit (in all but size). ”
-J.R.R Tolkien
-J.R.R Tolkien
I think the 'aristocrat' thing is a terminological rather than substantial disagreement.bilbobaggins764 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2025 1:54 pm
That is a good distinction to make. But some degree of aristocracy (natural perhaps more often then bloodline, besides the Took family of course) was around.
Regarding the lawyer in The Shire (God please not let it be!), one could argue this is apocrypha. That Tolkien left it out on purpose. But thanks for the link.
I shall dig into 214 once I get home, thank you.
Fair enough on apocryphal lawyers. I think that was an outgrowth of the original Hobbit story, where at the end "the legal bother" after Bilbo's year-long vanishing is said to have lasted for years. It took a while for Tolkien to adjust from this first Hobbit story to the second, and I think the lawyers are in the earliest drafts.
If you do have any thoughts on Letter 214 I'd be curious to hear them.
Eat earth. Dig deep. Drink water.
What a great letter!Chrysophylax Dives wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2025 2:15 pmI think the 'aristocrat' thing is a terminological rather than substantial disagreement.bilbobaggins764 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2025 1:54 pm
That is a good distinction to make. But some degree of aristocracy (natural perhaps more often then bloodline, besides the Took family of course) was around.
Regarding the lawyer in The Shire (God please not let it be!), one could argue this is apocrypha. That Tolkien left it out on purpose. But thanks for the link.
I shall dig into 214 once I get home, thank you.
Fair enough on apocryphal lawyers. I think that was an outgrowth of the original Hobbit story, where at the end "the legal bother" after Bilbo's year-long vanishing is said to have lasted for years. It took a while for Tolkien to adjust from this first Hobbit story to the second, and I think the lawyers are in the earliest drafts.
If you do have any thoughts on Letter 214 I'd be curious to hear them.
Yes, I detect written as well as oral in letters 214! It indicates that writing accompanied the oral after entry to the shire, but it is not entirely explicit when writing began.
But this, of course, talks of politeness, and customs rather than laws you could be arrested for violating. No obligation to follow outside of social standing. Further notice the hobbits were the interpreters of the customs, such as Tolkien's notes on deciding the distance of 12 miles "12-mile cousin."
I am not sure written customs apply to law. Perhaps the written customs amount to lettered hobbits (heads of clans and such) jotting these down. It seems these customs are "lived out" and followed by all (generally-) whether they can read or not.
I found the comments about women matriarchs among the Hobbits very interesting.
My main question from the letter is Samwise's "rule" (does this have the authority of law? Is this a "new" one or a clarification only?) that if a witness is there and someone goes into the West and declares he is not coming back, the property (not its ownership but headship) is relinquished to the customs of inheritance of that clan. To be involved with rules, even if only within exiting customs, it must be within the mayor's existing jurisdiction to declare or clarify such disputes.
“I am in fact a Hobbit (in all but size). ”
-J.R.R Tolkien
-J.R.R Tolkien
Now I have to read the letter again! I'll be back in a day or two. I do recall it as a very interesting letter, but have forgotten all the details.
Eat earth. Dig deep. Drink water.
It appears the same happened to me, even though I quote from it in one of my works!Chrysophylax Dives wrote: ↑Wed Jan 15, 2025 1:53 pm Now I have to read the letter again! I'll be back in a day or two. I do recall it as a very interesting letter, but have forgotten all the details.
Maybe I skimmed it as I was not thinking information on b-days could reveal so much.
“I am in fact a Hobbit (in all but size). ”
-J.R.R Tolkien
-J.R.R Tolkien