Lore help please?

[Saranna]

I am hoping my Plaza friends and colleagues may be able to help me pin down a reference that I simply can't trace after lots of searching the texts and surfing the web.

I'm writing about Galadriel and need to refer to the idea that in Doriath, she was taught by Melian and gained skills that had come from Yavanna: notably weaving and the making of lembas. Darned if I can find where Tolkien said this, tho' I feel I did glimpse it at some point. (Moral: write down your refs as you go along.)

Maybe we could keep this thread to use for any of us who has lost their references?

[Ta'leus Shieldsong]

Here’s what I’ve got for you @Saranna!

Pgs. 130-131 of the Silmarillion (pages might not be the exact same for you but it’s in Chapter 13, Of The Return of The Noldor)

“Galadriel his sister went not with him to Nargothrond, for in Doriath dwelt Celeborn, kinsman of Thingol, and there was great love between them. Therefore she remained in the Hidden Kingdom, and abode with Melian, and of her learned great lore and wisdom concerning Middle-Earth.

Pgs. 147-49 of the Silmarillion (Chapter 15, Of The Noldor In Beleriand)

She and Melian have a conversation that lasts about a page and a half.

Pg. 168 of the Silmarillion (Chapter 17, Of The Coming of Men Into The West)

Melian and Galadriel have a brief exchange.

I hope this helps!

[Troelsfo]

Hmm ... excellent question, @Saranna.

I've tried looking into various texts, but I haven't been able to find it. The main books I have searched (using either my Kindle editions or the indices) are

• Unfinished Tales
• Parma Eldalamberon 17 – Words, Phrases and Passages in Various Tongues in The Lord of the Rings
• The Peoples of Middle-earth (esp. ch. XV “Of Lembas”)
• The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien
• J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia, Michael Drout (ed), entry “Lembas” by Thomas Honegger
• The War of the Jewels
• The Road Goes Ever On
• The Children of Hurin

Additionally, I have skimmed quickly through the articles in Vinyar Tengwar issues 35 through 50, searching for anything that might pertain on this.

All in vain.

I also note that a Google search for “"galadriel" "lembas"” doesn't turn up any references, and the Tolkien Gateway (normally a credible source) or the Encyclopedia of Arda do not claim that Galadriel learned the art of baking lembas from Melian, but merely notes that Galadriel hands them out.

One should, of course, be very careful about such conclusions, but if there is textual evidence explicitly stating that Galadriel learned the art of baking lembas from Melian, then it is, indeed, very obscure.

[Mattie]

@Saranna I think it's in UT. I've got a copy of the 40th anniversary edition coming in the mail so when I read it I'll let you know if it's in there.
Don't you just hate it when you can't find a quote? I've been looking for this Freud quote for 5 years now, I know I wrote it down in my Honours notebook back in 2016 but unfortunately I threw the notebook in the bin

[Boromir88]

Greetings @Saranna, excellent idea to keep a thread for anyone who has lost references. I definitely know what you mean.

Like @Troelsfo, I've been unable to find any reference explicitly stating Galadriel learned the art of baking lembas from Melian. I think that's something which can be inferred splicing together quotes though...

From the Chapter Of Lembas in The Peoples of Middle-earth:

From the ear to the wafer none were permitted to handle this grain, save those elven-women who were called Yavannildi (or by the Sindar the Ivonwin), the maidens of Yavanna; and the art of the making of the lembas, which they learned of the Valar, was a secret among them, and so ever has remained.

Then in a note 12 from Unfinished Tales: Narn I Hin Hurin:
"...Beleg's coming to Menegroth (where he received the sword Anglachel from Thingol and lembas from Melian).

And there are many references to Galadriel being a pupil of Yavanna and Melian. So, I think it's quite reasonable to connect the dots from lembas > Yavannildi > Melian > Galadriel, but I was unable to find a direct reference. Maybe searching for Yavannildi/Ivonwin will lead to a more direct reference?

[Lirimaer]

'Another gift I will give to you, Cúthalion,' said Melian, 'that shall be your help in the wild, and the help also of those whom you choose.' And she gave him store of lembas, the waybread of the Elves, wrapped in leaves of silver, and the threads that bound it were sealed at the knots with the seal of the Queen, a wafer of white wax shaped as a single flower of Telperion; for according to the customs of the Eldalië the keeping and giving of lembas belonged to the Queen alone. In nothing did Melian show greater favour to Túrin than in this gift; for the Eldar had never before allowed Men to use this waybread, and seldom did so again.
~ Of Túrin Turambar, Sil

The lembas of Melian is mentioned a couple more times. This verse does explain why Galadriel, as reigning female ruler of her own realm, was traditionally in a position to share it with whomsoever she pleased.

[Troelsfo]

Greetings @Saranna, excellent idea to keep a thread for anyone who has lost references. I definitely know what you mean.

Oh, dear, yes!

Thank Eru for Kindle! And for being an old fart who, in my distant youth, learned to use indices effectively! (a very important skill – at least until the rest of The History of Middle-earth, The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion, and a few other essential works can be had electronically )

Like @Troelsfo, I've been unable to find any reference explicitly stating Galadriel learned the art of baking lembas from Melian. I think that's something which can be inferred splicing together quotes though...

I do think that it is a very reasonable inference, that I also considered carefully, but I ended up finding it far from certain.

While Galadriel was not the “highest among the elven-women of any people, great or small” (The Peoples of Middle-earth, XV, p. 404) while she was in Valinor, she was, as you say, also a pupil of Yavanna (Unfinished Tales, part 2, IV, p.304).

I, therefore, think that we cannot rule out the possibility that Galadriel had learned the craft directly from its Valarin source.

[Elenhir]

I've seen this idea pop up quite a few places recently online, never with a reference. I don't recall it being said so frequently before. My guess is somebody read the Encyclopedia of Arda article as being hard fact (contrary to @Troelsfo, I would say the EoA article implies the idea as true, and by neglecting any association with Yavanna certainly doesn't do anything to provide an alternative) and repeated it, and now we're experiencing the early days of a bit of misinformation that will either fizzle or spread.

[Saranna]

Thanks so much all of you for you kind - and erudite - responses. I found something in UT but I didn't see an actual reference to lembas, this may be one of those things that's become an alternative fact (last reference ever to a certain person!)
@Ta'leus Shieldsong I think yours is the best, I'd forgotten where that was too, and though it's general it fits just fine with that I need to say.
You are all wonderful!!!!

[Ta'leus Shieldsong]

Glad to be of service! I don't often have much to contribute to lore conversations except in regard to scouring books and indexes for information. Haha.

[Saranna]

Just want to thank you all for your help; finally got the article off to the editors yesterday, Now it's the waiting game to see if it's up to standard, and if it is, there's the wait for publication.