(Silly) Time-travel in Middle-earth

[Lailyn]

I was thinking about the non-linear aspects of RP time-lines and then I thought to myself: if anyone in Middle-earth could time travel, who would it be? Surely a Maia of Vaire, Weaver of Time, or even Vaire herself, might have been able to travel through time or weave such a magic cloak or device to allow you to time-travel?

What are your thoughts? Perhaps you even have a theory that a character familiar to us could travel through time...and what did (or would) they do if so?

[Boromir88]

Ooh, silly lore topic. I'll try not to make it too serious, so this will just be a bunch of random thoughts somewhat associated to time travel.

I'll start with Eru who seems beyond time, and time seems to be even something the Valar are bound to. As Gandalf reports when he comes back:

'Then darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell.'

'Naked I was sent back - for a brief time, until my task is done.' (The Two Towers: The White Rider)

Maybe that isn't quite time travel, it's sort of even beyond time travel, Gandalf wondering in places out of 'thought and time.' But he does use the words 'sent back.' and 'for a brief time'. Clearly that means sent back in time, right!?

Then there's Elves and they seem rather obsessed with trying to halt/delay the 'slow decay of time.' Time appears to move differently in Lothlorien than elsewhere in Middle-earth. With how obsessed they are with the past, it does appear they would be interested in time travel. I don't think it's too ridiculous to suggest if they ever figured it out, at least one of them would want to go back and alter events surrounding the whole 'oath of Feanor' mess.

My final thought is, I believe I'd even argue Merry time traveled. It may have been in a dream, but it was such a convincing and life-like dream he believed he was an ancient warrior who got stabbed in the chest by a spear:

'What in the name of wonder?' began Merry, feeling the golden circlet that had slipped over on the eye. Then he stopped, and a shadow came over his face, and he closed his eyes. 'Of course, I remember!' he said. 'The men of Carn Dum came on us at night, and we were worsted. Ah! the spear in my heart!' He clutched at his breast... (The Fellowship of the Ring: Fog on the Barrow-downs)

Definitely a case of time travel.

[Androthelm]

To jump in as well (and hope I'm not taking this too seriously), I think time-travel poses some really interesting thematic questions to Middle-Earth. After all, the passing of time -- and the destruction it brings -- is such a common sight in the world of Arda-Marred. And (pardon me since I can't find the quote, but) didn't the Professor himself remark that the true "theme" of the Lord of the Rings was Immortality, and the struggle between "Mortal" Men who have theoretically some place to go beyond this world and "Immortal" Elves, for whom time will not bring the end but who are far more bound, as it turns out, to the earth?

Plus, I think it's fair to say that Valinor is to some degree "out of time" if not literally, at least in narrative. It is, after all, the perfect bubble that the elves are trying to replicate in Rivendell and Lothlorien -- a land of feasting and festival, even in the days when darkness grows across the earth. In some way, then, sailing west is time traveling -- back to the days of the beauty, when Morgoth had not yet twisted the world.

In response to @Boromir88's mention of Merry's time travelling in the Barrow-Downs, I'd like to (tangent, maybe) ask if anyone has read the H.P. Lovecraft story Polaris? It's... Not always great, as it does carry on Lovecraft's bigotry (as his stories tend to) but also deals with a similar time travel / memory of an ancient war / dream-transport-death and I found it quite interesting.

[KingODuckingham]

Technically everyone in Middle-earth is a time traveler, they just happen to be moving in the same direction and at the same rate, which can give the impression of static. It's all relative though, you know?

Joking aside, the slowing of that traveling through time is played upon in two ways, through the Elven perspective and then the twisted corruption of the Ring and all the other lesser rings it influences. The previous posters have already noted this, and I think it really is a serious part of the story of LotR.

It's a big topic, so I'll just ask: why do you think it's "preservation" for the Elves to slow time but "corruption" for the Ring to do it?

[Androthelm]

Oh that's a splendid question Duck. If I can throw my two cents, I think... Honestly, the Elves aren't doing Middle-Earth too many favors in their preservation.

They are doomed, after all, to fade--and I think if even one of the Elven Ringbearers really tried to stop that, it would quickly go the way of the Númenórians. That, I think, is the real Gift of Man--death and time passing are natural parts of the world, and not necessarily bad things. Men live within that cycle (and perhaps beyond?) whereas elves are a bit... stuck. They may not notice it in the way Bilbo does, at least not immediately--but surely there's a sign in the fact that they all keep getting sad and departing for the west.
So Elves, in their preservation, may be corrupting the natural order to some degree as well.

[Lailyn]

Hey, make it as serious or as silly as you want! I'd love to see serious discussion come out of this.

I think you are onto something with Gandalf, @Boromir88! He basically said it himself that he time-traveled!

Your mention of Merry time-traveling, by the way, reminds me of a most joking theory I swear used to exist that Pippin was psychic. I can't remember the details, but there was a bunch of examples that he said things that would then later happen.

It is interesting, isn't it, that time seems to slow or characters lose track of time both in Lothlorien and in Tom Bombadil's house? Maybe Tom B's house is really a portal to another time/place...

@Androthelm - please feel free to discuss time as a theme more seriously if you want to! I think this is a really interesting point! Its not something I thought of before, but there is an element of time and immortality involved, isn't there? The whole Gift of Men and everything.

It's a big topic, so I'll just ask: why do you think it's "preservation" for the Elves to slow time but "corruption" for the Ring to do it?

This is a really excellent question. The only thing that comes to my mind is that the Ring was created with bad intentions of suborning others whereas Elves obviously were not. I'm interested in what others think in addition to @Androthelm's very interesting thoughts.

[Androthelm]

On another note, I did find some interesting potential time travel thanks to the elven magic in Lothlorien. If I can quote the longish passage...

Sam sat tapping the hilt of his sword as if he were counting on his fingers, and looking up at the sky. `It's very strange,' he murmured. `The Moon's the same in the Shire and in Wilderland, or it ought to be. But either it's out of its running, or I'm all wrong in my reckoning. You'll remember, Mr. Frodo, the Moon was waning as we lay on the flet up in that tree: a week from the full, I reckon. And we'd been a week on the way last night, when up pops a New Moon as thin as a nail-paring, as if we had never stayed no time in the Elvish country.
`Well, I can remember three nights there for certain, and I seem to remember several more, but I would take my oath it was never a whole month. Anyone would think that time did not count in there! '
`And perhaps that was the way of it,' said Frodo. `In that land, maybe, we were in a time that has elsewhere long gone by. It was not, I think, until Silverlode bore us back to Anduin that we returned to the time that flows through mortal lands to the Great Sea. And I don't remember any moon, either new or old, in Caras Galadhon: only stars by night and sun by day.'
Legolas stirred in his boat. `Nay, time does not tarry ever,' he said; `but change and growth is not in all things and places alike. For the Elves the world moves, and it moves both very swift and very slow. Swift, because they themselves change little, and all else fleets by: it is a grief to them. Slow, because they do not count the running years, not for themselves. The passing seasons are but ripples ever repeated in the long long stream. Yet beneath the Sun all things must wear to an end at last.'
`But the wearing is slow in Lórien,' said Frodo. `The power of the Lady is on it. Rich are the hours, though short they seem, in Caras Galadhon, where Galadriel wields the Elven-ring.'
'That should not have been said outside Lórien, not even to me,' said Aragorn. `Speak no more of it! But so it is, Sam: in that land you lost your count. There time flowed swiftly by us, as for the Elves. The old moon passed, and a new moon waxed and waned in the world outside, while we tarried there. And yestereve a new moon came again. Winter is nearly gone. Time flows on to a spring of little hope.'

So, time funkiness is certainly within the power of Galadriel, if perhaps not straight backwards travel

[Mojo]

So I know this is marked as Silly, but there are some interesting questions to be posed here.

Outside of the dreams the characters have recalling real events (Merry in the Barrow-Downs, Faramir's dream of Numenor, etc) there are some other instances of characters being "frozen in time" or at least, acknowledging the passing of time differently. Two instances that come to mind are when Thingol met Melian and when Beren met Luthien.

Elwë, lord of the Teleri, went often through the great woods to seek out Finwë his friend in the dwellings of the Noldor; and it chanced on a time that he came alone to the starlit wood of Nan Elmoth, and there suddenly he heard the song of nightingales. Then an enchantment fell on him, and he stood still; and afar off beyond the voices of the lómelindi he heard the voice of Melian, and it filled all his heart with wonder and desire. He forgot then utterly all his people and all the purposes of his mind, and following the birds under the shadow of the trees he passed deep into Nan Elmoth and was lost. But he came at last to a glade open to the stars, and there Melian stood; and out of the darkness he looked at her, and the light of Aman was in her face.

She spoke no word; but being filled with love Elwë came to her and took her hand, and straightway a spell was laid on him, so that they stood thus while long years were measured by the wheeling stars above them; and the trees of Nan Elmoth grew tall and dark before they spoke any word.

And similarly (most likely on purpose because Tolkien does everything with intent):

But she vanished from his sight; and he became dumb, as one that is bound under a spell, and he strayed long in the woods, wild and wary as a beast, seeking for her. In his heart he called her Tinúviel, that signifies Nightingale, daughter of twilight, in the Grey-elven tongue, for he knew no other name for her. And he saw her afar as leaves in the winds of autumn, and in winter as a star upon a hill, but a chain was upon his limbs.

There came a time near dawn on the eve of spring, and Lúthien danced upon a green hill; and suddenly she began to sing. Keen, heart-piercing was her song as the song of the lark that rises from the gates of night and pours its voice among the dying stars, seeing the sun behind the walls of the world; and the song of Lúthien released the behind the walls of the world; and the song of Lúthien released the bonds of winter, and the frozen waters spoke, and flowers sprang from the cold earth where her feet had passed.

Then the spell of silence fell from Beren, and he called to her, crying Tinúviel; and the woods echoed the name. Then she halted in wonder, and fled no more, and Beren came to her. But as she looked on him, doom fell upon her, and she loved him; yet she slipped from his arms and vanished from his sight even as the day was breaking. Then Beren lay upon the ground in a swoon, as one slain at once by bliss and grief; and he fell into a sleep as it were into an abyss of shadow, and waking he was cold as stone, and his heart barren and forsaken. And wandering in mind he groped as one that is stricken with sudden blindness, and seeks with hands to grasp the vanished light. Thus he began the payment of anguish for the fate that was laid on him; and in his fate Lúthien was caught, and being immortal she shared in his mortality, and being free received his chain; and her anguish was greater than any other of the Eldalië has known.

Beyond his hope she returned to him where he sat in darkness, and long ago in the Hidden Kingdom she laid her hand in his. Thereafter often she came to him, and they went in secret through the woods together from spring to summer; and no others of the Children of Ilúvatar have had joy so great, though the time was brief.

[Androthelm]

I think @Mojo that those "frozen in time" sequences are especially interesting because they reveal the degree to which Tolkien was inspired by Fairy-Stories. There is, for all the awe and majesty of Thingol and the sweet romance of Beren and Luthien, still a touch of Rip Van Winkle about this idea of being swept off to Faerie and lost for many years.

Which, as it happens, since Valinor is Faerie and Lothlorien is crafted in memory of the Gardens of Lorien in Valinor... Is sort of just what happens to the Fellowship, when they lose track of time in Caras Galadhon.

[Lailyn]

A question about Lothlorien springs to my mind based on @Androthelm's passage. Is time so different in Lorien because it is an Elven domain, because Galadriel wields Nenya, because it is inspired by the Gardens of Lorien, or do you think its a combination of those things?

Those passages are beautiful. Nice to read them again. Since Beren/Luthien mirrors Aragorn/Arwen, now I'm wondering if they had a similar "time-freeze" when meeting or not. I will have to check the passage later unless someone beats me to it.

To summarize so far, we have...(not all are entirely serious)

Our time travelers (or possible time-travelers):
Vaire
Everyone (according to Ducky)
Gandalf
Merry
Elves in general (?) - they have a different relationship with time at least
Melian and Elwe/Thingol
Beren and Luthien

Places where time seems to move at a different pace:
Tom Bombadil's house
Lothlorien
Valinor
Rivendell