Galadriel’s Mirror

[Turin Ringhûn]

I posted this on the Facebook group last year. I figured I could put it here for further discussion.

The other day, I was reading FotR again, and I got to the Mirror of Galadriel. Her comment of, "do not touch the water" got me thinking about all the lore and debates that was/were on the plaza. I was wondering if it was ever discussed what would have happened if the water was touched.

What really intrigued me was after Frodo's viewing, she states that Sauron is constantly trying to see her thoughts. It seems like the mirror is similar to the palantiri. Galadriel is of the Noldor, and the Palantiri were made by Feanor of the Noldor.

And we all know that Denethor was driven mad by Sauron through the palantir, and Saruman essentially was as well.

[Dimcairien Luiniel]

Hmm, so perhaps going with that line of though, there is a danger of going mad if you touch the water and are not of the Noldor?

I do like the idea of the mirror and the palantir having a similar backstory. As you, they do have similar characteristics. M

[Troelsfo]

With regards to the Palantíri, there is a very interesting discussion of them in Unfinished Tales (in part four – the chapter being practically titled “The Palantíri” :smiley10: ).

The character of Galadriel evolved quite dramatically. She was invented for The Lord of the Rings and got written into the Silmarillion mythology afterwards. At first she was not particularly important, and when you read about her in the published Silmarillion, she will not appear the equal of Fëanor in power and impact, but this was how Tolkien later came to view her. In the end he appears to have elevated her to almost be greater in power than Fëanor and he wanted to give to her a separate history of moving to Middle-earth from Valinor with a much lesser ‘rebellion’ (and, particularly, he seems to have wanted to make her completely guiltless with respect to the Kinslaying at Alqualondë).

Whether the mirror played any part in all this is doubtful, but it is an interesting bit of magic. The Palantíri were primarily two-way communication devices that could also be used for other purposes. The uses we do see in The Lord of the Rings are mainly related to the these other uses, but this was mostly of secondary importance for their makers. With this in mind, it is possible to speculate whether Frodo would have laid himself bare to Sauron had he touched the water, much in the same way as Pippin was laid bare in the Palantir (and would have revealed everything if Sauron had questioned him there and then).

[Turin Ringhûn]

I like that Troelsfo. It has been a while since I’ve read Unfinished Tales. And I’m ashamed to say Instill have yet to finish reading Silm.

I agree, her character seems to be no one of importance, to essentially the greatest of the Noldor.

It seems to me that the Mirror was her way of watching over the goings on in middle earth, and because it appears to be of similar ‘magic’ to the palantir, I think your assessment is likely, touching the water with Sauron ever searching could make Frodo laid bare.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

I never thought about the 'do not touch the water' line and have nothing to add to what is said above. But I think the relationship posited here between Mirror and Seeing Stones could be elaborated a little. On first meeting the Company, Galadriel reads the hearts and minds of each without use of words (cf. also the silent conversation in Hollin with Gandalf and others near the end of the story) and when she says that Sauron is trying to read her mind she adds that while he as yet cannot she knows his mind. So, the Seeing Stones as wordless communication devices allow mortals to engage in the same 'telepathic' meeting of mind with mind that Galadriel and other high beings can engage in. In other words, this aspect of the Stones has nothing to do with the Mirror.

In the first instance, the Mirror is more akin to the white Elf-tower to the west of the Shire (of Frodo's dream at Crickhollow) than it is to the Palantiri. When Frodo enters Lórien it seems he has 'stepped over a bridge of time into a corner of the Elder Days, and was now walking in a world that was no more.' In light of the wider mythology, we see that, by aid of her Ring of Power, Galadriel preserves Lórien as a pocket of Myth as the world was before the fall of Númenor. But the Mirror shows scenes from the world of history beyond Galadriel's realm of myth. As such, the Mirror presents a sort of counterpoint to the view from the white tower that looks to Valinor in the West. In other words, where the Tower gives a view from History into Myth the Mirror gives a view from Myth into History - and putting the two together gives us an image of the meeting of two minds across this gulf.

Of course, in the final working out of these images the elf-tower is said to house a special Palantir (Elendil's Stone), which was not in accord with the other six but looked only over the sea. In other words, Tolkien's imagination of the Seeing Stones is clearly bound up in his imagination of the Mirror (as also the Tower looking over the sea).

[Dorwiniondil]

I had never thought of Lothlórien in quite that way, but it definitely makes sense. Thank you, @simon !

[Troelsfo]

I never thought about the 'do not touch the water' line and have nothing to add to what is said above. But I think the relationship posited here between Mirror and Seeing Stones could be elaborated a little. <snip> So, the Seeing Stones as wordless communication devices allow mortals to engage in the same 'telepathic' meeting of mind with mind that Galadriel and other high beings can engage in. In other words, this aspect of the Stones has nothing to do with the Mirror.

If we go by the discussion in Ósanwe-kenta[1], then there seems to be two important corrections to this.

First, the communication of thought (ósanwe) that you mention was wordless [2], whereas the communication facilitated by the palantíri was with words (or using ‘tengwesta’). There is, as far as I know, no evidence that the palantíri could communicate thought directly (i.e. without words), and the description offered by Pippin also includes words.

Secondly, there is a clear statement that Men are also capable of this communication of thought, though weaker. Tolkien cites Pengolodh as saying that “Men have the same faculty as the Quendi, but it is in itself weaker, and is weaker in operation owing to the strength of the hröa, over which most men have small control by the will”.[3]

It seems unknown exactly when and by whom the palantíri were created. Gandalf merely says that “The Noldor made them. Fëanor himself, maybe, wrought them, in days so long ago that the time cannot be measured in years.”[4] The implication of age is here crucial. The stones appear to have been made long before they were gifted to Elendil as “an inalienable gift to Elendil and his heirs” [5] before they left Numenor. This would mean that this ability to facilitate communication by tengwesta over great distances was also originally intended for use by Elves.

Whether Galadriel's mirror is related to this aspect is, of course, still pure conjecture. As a single device, it would probably not be connected to any other devices, and so the situation is certainly not in all details equivalent to Pippin's error on Dol Baran. But there remain other ways of exposing oneself even if I was probably in error when suggesting that Frodo might have “revealed everything if Sauron had questioned him there and then”.

As such, the Mirror presents a sort of counterpoint to the view from the white tower that looks to Valinor in the West. In other words, where the Tower gives a view from History into Myth the Mirror gives a view from Myth into History - and putting the two together gives us an image of the meeting of two minds across this gulf.

That's an interesting thought. Thank you, @Simon.

Of course, the closest we get to that particular tower is Frodo's dream in Tom Bombadil's house, which is not particularly helpful here. John Garth, by the way, has some theories about the inspirations for that tower, that I find quite interesting. We do not get a closer look at the stone itself when Círdan put it on board the ship to Valinor (which happens off-stage and is only reported in a footnote to appendix A). As Galadriel sailed on the same ship, at that point, both of these views disappeared from Middle-earth (and, perhaps more importantly in this connection, Lothlórien as itself a “pocket of Myth” (I like that phrase!) also disappeared from Middle-earth). Myth was thereafter only retained in lore, encapsulated in language.

Maybe there is more to be said about that

Notes:

1. Ósanwe-kenta (published in Vinyar Tengwar (VT) no. 39) was probably composed around 1959-60, and so it may be debatable to what degree we can use this text to illuminate the original intent of The Lord of the Rings.
2. “Lastly, tengwesta (language) has also become an impediment. It is in the Incarnates clearer and more precise than their direct reception of thought.” (VT 39, p.24)
3. ibid. p. 23
4. The Lord of the Rings, Arda structural reference: LR,3,XI:99
5. Unfinished Tales, part four, chapter III “The Palantíri”

[Boromir88]

Fascinating topic. I remember engaging in the past about the magic in the mirror of Galadriel. I'm pretty sure halfir had created a thread all about it. Drat, if it's now lost. Some things that stood out reading the relevant part in The Mirror of Galadriel

'Many things I can command the Mirror to reveal,' she answered, 'and to some I can show what they desire to see...'


Galadriel states that she has a lot of influence over the visions in the mirror, and she can also reveal to the person what they "desire" to see. However, she does not have full command over the visions in the mirror as she tells Frodo and Sam 'What you will see, if you leave the Mirror free to work, I cannot tell.'

Sam, before viewing the mirror says 'And I'd not mind a glimpse of what's going on at home.'. So, his vision is dominated by the Scouring of the Shire vision and Ted Sandyman's cutting down trees, which is what he desired to see.

Frodo's vision starts out with Gandalf, as the grief of Gandalf's loss is still near. It looks like Gandalf, but it can't be, because this wizard is robed in white and has a white staff (at least from Frodo's pov), then it goes to Bilbo, someone else he had a strong bond with and 'lost.' Then it goes to "many swift scenes followed that Frodo in some way knew to be parts of a great history in which he had become involved."


Frodo's visions are kind of all over the place. I think perhaps he seeing what he "desires"...losing Gandalf, leads him to think about Bilbo and "have a look" on Bilbo, which leads him to this entire history and quest to destroy the Ring that he's become involved in. When Frodo sees the Eye:

Then the Eye began to rove, searching this way and that; and Frodo knew with certainty and horror that among the many things that it sought he himself was one. But he also knew that it could not see him - not yet, not unless he willed it. The Ring that hung upon its chain about his neck grew heavy. heavier than a great stone, and his head was dragged downwards. The Mirror seemed to be growing hot and curls of steam were rising from the water. He was slipping forward.

'Do not touch the water!' said the Lady Galadriel softly. The vision faded, and Frodo found that he was looking at the cool stars twinkling in the silver basin.

A few things here.

1. Frodo believes the Eye is searching for many things, of which he was one of them. But that's interesting that we have a vision of a "roving, searching" eye, but Frodo was only one of the many things Sauron was searching for.

2. "it could not see him - not yet, not unless he willed it.' Fascinating, because fast forward to Amon Hen, when there is a contest between the Voice and the Eye striving for control of Frodo's will. The Voice that yells "take it off!" turned out to be Gandalf:

He heard himself crying out: Never, never! Or was it: Verily I come, I come to you? He could not tell. Then as a flash from some other point of power there came to his mind another thought: Take it off! Take it off! Fool, take it off! Take off the Ring!

The two powers strove in him, For a moment, perfectly balanced between their piercing points, he writhed, tormented. Suddenly he was aware of himself again, Frodo, neither the Voice nor the Eye: free to choose, and with one remaining instant in which to do so. He took the Ring off his finger. The Breaking of the Fellowship


In the Mirror vision, Frodo knows the Eye will not find him unless he wills it. The ring starts getting heavy and pulling him closer to the Eye. It's trying to exert it's will to be found over Frodo. Galadriel steps in and essentially shuts off the Mirror. "Do not touch the water" she speaks softly, the vision fades. In Amon Hen, the will of the Ring to be found is starting to get more control, Frodo can no longer tell if he's saying "Never!" or "Verily I come to you". In comes the Voice from Gandalf, telling him to take it off. After the 2 powers struggle and torment Frodo for a while, Frodo regathers now free to choose and takes off the Ring.

I'm not sure if Frodo "touching" the water" would have revealed him to Sauron or not. The Ring was getting heavier, so perhaps he would have felt the desire to put on the Ring, as he has done before when confronted by the Nazgul. There is a clear danger though in being discovered by Sauron, both in the Mirror of Galadriel and later with the "magic" of Amon Hen. In both instances, Frodo is aware that the Eye won't find him unless he wills it.

3. I wonder if Galadriel's "Do not touch the water!" was more like a turn off switch? Galadriel in the beginning says she can command the Mirror to reveal many things. Which suggests the Mirror is a magic that is strongly under her command.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

First, the communication of thought (ósanwe) that you mention was wordless [2], whereas the communication facilitated by the palantíri was with words (or using ‘tengwesta’). There is, as far as I know, no evidence that the palantíri could communicate thought directly (i.e. without words), and the description offered by Pippin also includes words.

Hi @Troelsfo. I am not sure I understand your argument. After Pippin's encounter with Sauron in the Stone of Orthanc, Pippin reports:

He did not speak so I could hear words. He just looked, and I understood.

You quote from Ósanwe-kenta: “Lastly, tengwesta (language) has also become an impediment [to direct mind communication]. It is in the Incarnates clearer and more precise than their direct reception of thought.” (VT 39, p.24.

Yes, that the idea here is that mortals as well as elves can (in theory) engage in direct mind 'reading' (like Galadriel with the Company). Yes, also, that the idea here seems to be that our use of language is a factor in our failing to engage in mind-reading in practice. And yes also to your point that I was wrong to juxtapose our mortal need for words with an elvish telepathy. But what I take from Ósanwe-kenta is that the Seeing Stones allow mortals to engage in a mind communication that they are theoretically but not in practice capable of (and perhaps this theoretical potential is necessary for the Seeing Stones to achieve this end?)

What I do not see at all is that "the communication facilitated by the palantíri was with words (or using ‘tengwesta’)." I do not think this is correct. (I am happy to be persuaded otherwise).

[Chrysophylax Dives]

@Troelsfo the above took me back to the note on palantíri in 'Unfinished Tales.' The key is in the last footnote, which CT says is from a detached note:

Two persons, each using a Stone 'in accord' with the other, could converse, but not by sound, which the Stones did not transmit. Looking one at the other they would exchange 'thought' - not their full or true thought, or their intentions, but 'silent speech,' the thoughts they wished to transmit (already formalized in linguistic form in their minds or actually spoken aloud), which would be received by their respondents and of course immediately transformed into 'speech,' and only reportable as such.

You were right, therefore, to correct me when you insisted:

... the communication facilitated by the palantíri was with words (or using ‘tengwesta’).

Thank you very much! I have to recant what I wrote above and now have a new thing to think about, namely the difference for Pippin - the partner in communication aside - in being silently 'interviewed' by Galadriel and being questioned by Sauron in the Stone of Orthanc.